Quote:
Originally Posted by (1VB)compforce
TR,
Your input received and being given a great deal of consideration. I was approaching this from the standpoint of "you are required to E&E within 5 minutes of reading this post". I don't own a .22LR so that wasn't in the mix. Not really much that I'm allowed to shoot here in ATL so everything I own is for personal defense or range.
My thought process is to be prepared at any range with access times driven by the range. Knife for CQC, Pistol for short with immediate access, storm for medium range with 10 second access, rifle for longer ranges with 1 minute access. The Storm is a tack driver at 100M where I would be lucky to hit a man sized target with a pistol. That's the reason I like it for an engagement beyond normal pistol range. Reviews peg the group at 2"@100Y from a cradle. I've snapshot 4" over-the-shoulder hostage targets consistently at 25M with it. At 25M, I'm lucky to be on black paper with any of my handguns (I have a bad case of dupetryn's syndrome in one of my hands so no proper grip). If I drop the Storm, I'd take one of my Kimbers rather than the 92, probably the 4" Pro Carry II in .45 ACP
As far as the E&E itself, my mindset is the gray man. I'm in an urban setting in a major metro for the first 15 miles so I want to make myself blend in as much as possible and walk out. No camoflage, just a regular guy out for a walk if possible.
Am I thinking about this the wrong way? If I have to fight my way out, I'd think I was pretty much screwed in this area, better to get in my big weapon (the car) and try to haul ass through the coverage before they could react, ditch the car down the road, switch back to gray man before they knew who I was/what I look like and try to make the woodline before they got a fix on me.
Your thoughts for those of us that need to E&E out of a major urban area?
Not arguing, I'm interested in your take based on the situation.
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Consider this.
It isn't just the ability to hit the target at 100 yards, but what happens to the target, if it is hit.
9x19mm loads are optimized for a pistol barrel of 5" or less, and I doubt if the last six to eight inches of a 16" carbine is giving you much more burn. Anything over 10" - 12" is probably a waste, and is just there for BATF legal reasons.
Performance bullets are made to function for maximum terminal effect between a certain velocity range. Normally, that would be from muzzle to 50 meters or so from the pistol, possibly as little as 25 for slower rounds like the .45ACP.
Launching a JHP bullet at 1400 fps, rather than 1100 means that the bullet will tend to overexpand and underpenetrate. You will get typical handgun performance somewhere around the 950-1150 fps range, and as it slows below that, you will get more penetration and less expansion. If you chrony'ed the MV of the carbine with your carry ammo, I am sure that you could extrapolate the range of desired performance. May not even be a concern, as long as you are aware of it.
The CX4 is a nice little plinker. I would not mistake it for an assault rifle or carbine though. For me, I would prefer the M-4 or more ammo for the AR-10.
Not to spend your money, but you might want to consider a pellet pistol for backyard practice and saving up for a carbine in 5.56 or 7.62x39. You used to be able
I am sure that you can get by with your weapons loadout, but I would not hump a ten pound semi-auto rifle with just 20 rounds unless that was all of the ammo I had.
You might also want to look at alternative sighting options that would give you a CQB capability for your AR-10, like an offset Doctor Optic or a similar red dot sight.
If you are in an urban area, you need to consider how to get out in advance of when the SHTF. I would look to establish some criteria that would cause me to initiate my plan fairly early on the timeline.
Fifteen miles through some of the Atlanta neighborhoods I have seen could be rough. Outside of the scenario, you need to drive, get a motorcycle, or a bike.
Gray man is the way to be, in your situation. Invisible man would be better yet. Hide the guns unless you decide that the situation is better packing openly and appearing to be a harder target than going concealed.
I do not want to get too deeply into over analyzing the scenario. I wanted to see what the bugout weapons might realistically look like without opening the thread to people who would say they were going to carry everything including the kitchen sink.
If you need to use your car, you might want to have a PACE plan picked out where P might be your car, A could be a motorcycle, C would be your bicycle and trailer, and E is your feet.
Honestly, I wouldn't want to live within 50 miles of a major metro area or a natural line of drift for a plethora of reasons. Honestly, my solution would be to start working on a plan to get out. Otherwise, you need a very solid plan, with lots of contingencies for the most likely and most dangerous courses of action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen
Given those specifics, assuming I'm moving alone, and assuming a time of year which allows for surviving a dip in the lake...
(short distance across the channel)
Biggest enemy around here is the terrain and environment.
Also an asset due to the difficulty of pursuit.
-North American 22 magnum mini-revolver w/50 rounds (45 left in box, 5 in cylinder)
-Colt Delta 10mm w/3 mags (25 rounds - preferably 230 grain hard cast)
-ar15 (16 inch barrel, collapsible stock, sling) with 2 mags, 30 rounds each
-12 gauge Mossberg 500, 18.5 inch barrel, 8 rounds 00 buck (all loaded in gun)
-bug out bag
-4 waterski vests
Reasoning/planning:
-Ski vests are for flotation, two for me, one for bag, one more just in case (they're pretty light), throw 3 of them once I'm confident no more time in the lake is likely (remaining one has other potential uses).
-12 gauge is for all the reasons I can't think of, gets thrown once I hit water (~2.5 miles).
-ar15 gets slung, should make water crossing with extra vests, primary purpose is to discourage/delay pursuit, extra mag is mainly for reliability/redundancy, it (weapon & ammo) will get thrown if it becomes a liability (probably thrown within 25 miles).
-10mm packs a punch, doesn't way too much.
-22 mag is trivial in weight, pretty accurate to 50 ft, can take small game (and still have a spare gun for all the reasons I can't think of).
Not much "fighting" ammo or weapons for over the long haul.
Would prefer to avoid fights if at all possible.
"Fighting" weapons are primarily for discouraging/delaying pursuit.
Would be outnumbered, outgunned, and I am not a gunfighter.
Better to take my chances with quicker egress into forbidding terrain.
Would want to keep load as light as is feasible.
Once clear of the lake, the big enemy is dehydration.
Sweat must be budgeted.
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Crossing water is a decent plan, especially given the arid climate you live near. You would likely haver to plot your route from water source to water source. In fact, it would not be a terrible idea to cache some water at regular intervals along your route or near your destination. If the situation appeared to be going bad, you could dig in some five gallon buckets of water and recover them or not, as needed without any big investment other than a little sweat.
I think one of your biggest assets is your detailed knowledge of the area and especially the neighborhoods. If anyone has a good route out that they know like the back of their hand, it should be you.
Your best course of action would be almost certainly be to move at night, and lay up in the shade and rest during the day.
I must admit that after seeing a couple of people mentioning taking weapons with very little ammo, I am very pessimistic about the logic. Why carry a carbine, shotgun, and two pistols with only a few rounds each. I think I would rather have the M-4, five 30 rd. mags, and another five pounds of food or gear than a shotgun and eight rounds to go with it.
If you don't need it, break it down and keep it in your ruck for potential future use. If you really can't carry it, I would put it in a good hiding place where I could come back later and recover it.
I also have a NAA .22 mini-revolver, and I would not count on harvesting game with it, unless the game was a domesticated animal that you could call over to stand while you put it down. Have you tried hitting small targets with it already? Mine works best in a contact kill employment. No precision fire with that.
I think you have the basis for a good plan. You just have to think it through.
TR