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Originally Posted by x-factor
I respect that you're advocating facing down a serious threat and your sense of vigilance, but on several of these proposals I'm worried that you're talking about killing democracy to save it. Loyalty tests? Martial law? Monitoring religious opinions?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin
I'm not saying we don't need to be more vigilant. Certainly we need to improve our capability for domestic surveillance (both technical and human) in terms of making it more responsive and just generally larger. I think we need to seriously consider breaking off the counter-intelligence and counter-terrorism sections of the FBI into a domestic intelligence agency like Britain's MI5 (the stand up of DHS has been a debacle). Certainly there also needs to be better immigration and naturalization scrutiny.
In the 1960s and 70s we had problems with the Klan and neo-Nazi organizations. In the 1980s parts of the country (I grew up in Miami) faced a Wild West of drug running organized crime. In the 1990s we faced a problem with radical militia and white supremacist type groups. In all these cases (though to be fair they were smaller, less serious threats) we were able to beat them back without fundamentally compromising our core values.
With the utmost respect, we need to be smart and vigilant. We don't need to tear our society apart in a panic.
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Agreed...We don't want to hurt ourselves while trying to help ourselves...
Yeah, I'm uncomfortable with some of my own recommendations as well - but, I think they represent reality...I think in the end, unfortunately, we will lose many of our liberties. This is tragic. I think we will look back on our current time as the apex of the golden years...Nevertheless, society won't endure chaos. I'm a realist. So, I'm with you in spirit - I hope it doesn't have to get to where the recommendations like the ones I list become the staus quo. The point is - We'll probably get there whether we like it or not. I'm just laying it out. I'm not saying it's nice or the best world...right now I think we have the best world, but the world is changing fast.
I would be thrilled to be wrong. Sometimes I don't share things cause I don't like the fact that I'm actually saying it.
Franklin's quote is fine for a secure society - However, if is not secure, we will have lost liberty already - so, we will be in a battle to preserve the liberties that remain and/or trying to gain them back - and that's tricky. Less perilous times have seen martial law. With terror we've already lost tons of liberty - liberty to realistically dream about a secure world for our children and grandchildren - Were our fathers telling us we'd be at war for the rest of our lives as we are now telling our kids? The world is different for us than it was for our fathers, our grandparents, and for Benjamin Franklin. Things have been introduced that change the rules - and we are evidently a bit slow on the uptake.
Couple thoughts...
Relgious liberties are fine as long as they don't include conspiring to kill people - Jews, Christians, Hindus, Shia, non-Moslems, etc...Or, enabling millions to protect a killer culture. As you note the threat we're facing now is not from some splinter group - this is freak'n serious. We are dealing with a religion who's "holy book" advocates forcing conversion upon others and killing folks - killing men women and children - for resisting the application of the religion's injunctions.
A good starter for everyone is to read the Koran if you haven't already - It will open your eyes. In my reading of the Koran (it's not a long book - shorter than the Christian New Testament), one would have to misinterpret the book not to understand that obedience to it includes applying violence to people who refuse to come under the submission of Allah and the faith. Islamists are simply being obedient to their book's specific verses and commands. I'm not deluded enough to believe that many of Islam's 1.2 billion Muslims won't follow the very black and white tenets of their faith. If you don't have the time to read the Koran, I'd encourage the readers to visit the sites of Robert Spencer's
http://jihadwatch.org/or Daniel Pipe's site
http://www.danielpipes.org/
X-Factor, I hope you're right, and I'm over-reacting.
Three Soldier Dad...
All the best, Chuck