M-14/M1A
 

I've suddenly gained an interest in buying this weapon, but have no experience with them, nor do I know anybody that has. All I have is what i've read on a few pages.

What are your thoughts/comments? I'm looking for a traditional looking one, maybe even used, because the prices I'm seeing for new ones on the net are outta my range for now.

Thanks

I own one and I love it to death. Easy to disassemble and clean. Few moving parts. Make sure if you do buy it that you get the plastic coverings for the iron sights so they don't get dinged. Ammo is easy to come by. Now if you want to get a synthetic stock the cost is cheaper. That's what I opted for since I'm a cheap bastard and didn't want to pay an extra grand for Walnut stock. You can always buy it later. That nail driver is well worth the money. Mags vary from dealer to dealer. $20-$40. Go to Springfields website and check around.

What type of shooting do you want to do with it?

i've thought about doing some hunting with it, but it would be mostly used as a collectable.

I own a couple different variations of the M1A/M14 and love them to death. I have a National Match, the Scout rifle, and a rack grade.

I have hunted most big game in Alaska with my rack grade (though I don't recommend brown bear hunting with such a light round.) and have used the NM for varmint hunting on occasion. I've carried it in the worst conditions and terrain that AK has to offer and have never had a weapon malfunction (just ammo and that was crappy Greek 7.62 I bought at a gun show for cheap) . My scout I've run through the ringer doing tactical shoots and never had a complaint one about it.

They point nice, recoil is neglible (for follow up shots), shoots about any kind of ammo, easy to disassemble/maintain, accurate as hell, and there a tons of parts out there for them.

I own a couple other semi-auto 7.62s (HK91, FALs, CETME) but I always reach for that M1A when it comes to doing actual work. Plus, put a bayonet on that and you have damn fine spear that shoots!! :D

Watch buying any surplus M1s. I bought a WWII vintage low serial number M1 that was "shot out". It is a fine collectors item but not a shooter.

M14
 

I was lucky to inherit a National Match M14. Went thru AMTU Sniper School with the N.M M14 in 1984 when it was at Fort Bragg. No argument it is a great rifle. For nostalgia purposes I love it. I only own a few guns and the M14 is always the one I show or talk about. But if you’re looking for a long range accurate gas rifle for general purpose use (Hunting, Recreational Target Shooting or Competition) there are better 308 gas guns out there, but for a bigger price. After mounting a Scope and tripod the M14 is hard to resist for its looks, performance and Sniper history.

Dustin:

Hunting and a collectable? Go for it. Competitive High Power -- I would advise against one as they aren't competitive anymore unless you are shooting service rifle at 1000 yards and even then, they are marginally better than the ARs being used today.

There are better gas guns these days but I will say that the 14 is pretty durable. I think you will have a great time with one for the purposes you stated. Watch it if you hand load for one though. That can be a bit tricky.

Gene

M-14/M1A's are sweet, so are M-1 Garands. I almost like the Garand more even though it uses an 8 round "clip" instead of a magazine. The two weapons are closely related. I like the 30.06 better than .308 too, even though the two are close ballistically.

Surplus Garands can have lots of variation, it's not uncommon to find Garands with salt-water damage from Normandy. Throat erosion is a general indicator of wear, but not a complete indicator of accuracy. Most sellers will list the "TE" when selling.

I like forged military recievers (not castings). Avoid "rewelds" at all costs. And to echo what Gene said, NO HANDLOADS!!! I've seen forged GI recievers turn into chunks of shrapnel with hot handloads.

If you go the used route, drop the money on a headspace gauge.

I really like the M14/M1A1, Great rifle. When it came out, I thought, the best of both worlds the BAR mated to the Garand.

Cons, for a walking man, is weight. It weighs more and so does the ammo, which limits the amount of ammo carried. On Full auto it walks real bad, two rd bursts is prefered. I have owned a few and still own one. It is a excellent addition to any collection and a very fine weapon.

I'm Going out on a limb here but I have "some" time behind Both M14's and M1A's. My personal opinion is that my British SLR beats them both. The NM M1A has the edge on accuracy and I cannot compete with that. I have also had the opportunity to shoot an M-14 and a West German G1 (both select fire) and the FAL was a little more controllable than the 14, especially from the prone position on a sand bag. THe 14 bounced everywhere whereas the FAL kept pretty much aimed in the same direction.

to echo somewhat what Gene stated on handloads, do not shoot heavier than 168 gr in the M14/M1A combo. It causes heavier than normal wear and I have seen two seperate M1As with broken trigger pins and a blown extractor from shooting 175 gr. I know, we fired 173 gr in the M14/M21s whe we fired M118NM/SB. However that ammo was loaded light and vel was 2550.

The original 175 gr M118LR was past 2600 and was punishing to the weapon. A former instructor on SOTIC went to a match with his M1A and a load of original M118LR. He really wanted to see how they would do. Came back and gave me his rifle to fix. Blown extractor and broken trigger/sear pin.

Use the heavier bullets at your peril. With that said the M14 is a fine weapon for plinking/hunting but too fragile and finicky for serious competition. Even the Army team, when they used the M14NM weapons had armorers standing by to fix those suckers. :munchin

LR 1947, Thank you for filling in the blanks on Reloading No Nos on the M14/M1A1.

I have shoot some South African MG ammo out of another person's M1A1 with pretty good accuracy. We're hitting a 2 ft by 3 ft target at 1,000 M with iron sights.

I tend to pick my reloading data for low CPUs, and accuracy.

Dude you got me salivating. :D I wish there was that much open land here in Florida. I would LOVE to open up my iron sights at that range.

A mate of mine owns a Mini14. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I like the way it fits to my short arms :D

May be fun to shoot, but they have accuracy problems among other problems. I would not compare the two. The M14 is a much better weapon system then the Mini.

I may be stepping on toes but that is life. :munchin

Accuracy, durability, availability of spare parts and mags, etc., etc.

I have a Mini-14 as well, and it is no M-14, or even an M-4.

Concur completely with LR.

TR

If you own a Title II Mini, be very cautious about sending it back to Ruger !! They do not believe that "private citizens" should be allowed to own Class 3 weapons .

As far as a .308 goes, I'll stand with my FN LAR !! This puppy hits what I shoot at, and I've made MANY open sight hits way out there !!


Later
Martin

Oh I'm not surprised at all that it's a better weapon. I've only held an empty stock for an M14 so I couldn't compare the two.

An FAL variant is on the top of my list of to get firearms after I've got my licence. They served NZ well for so many years, I'd like to own a piece of history like that.

And that is one of its biggest problems. It is made by Ruger. :eek: :D

Since we're on a Ruger roll here, Bill Ruger has worked with legislators in helping to pass assault-rifle bans to save his own company's product's. What a f*king loser.

As a former Ruger owner (several models), I've sold them all except for a MK II bull bbl .22 pistol I let an ex-girlfriend "borrow."

I didn't really like her that much so I figured that since MK II's are such a pain in the ass to re-assemble, it would be the perfect gun for her. That's been years now, and I still don't miss any of my Ruger's. :D

Rick:

My experience indicates that it wasn't the ammo but rather something much simpler. The trigger pins and extractor were worn out and finally broke. I replaced an extractor from a AMU Super Match M-14 two years ago while orienting some Infantry snipers to the M-14. I originally got these super match M-14s out of the AMU for 1st SFG some ten years ago and they got abused once I retired. We broke an extractor on the first round fired of issued M-80 ball. It simply gave up the ghost and should have been replaced many years previously.

I won't get started on the problems with M-14s. Anyone who thinks they are the cure all in terms of durability fails to realize that things wear out. Parts of M-14s and Garands wear out faster than parts on M-16s despite those who claim otherwise.

I have no idea where to start with service grade M-14s but I do know a solution that I advise. When one blows out a barrel after five thousand rounds or so, replace the barrel and the following: Every part in the bolt. The oprod, oprod guide, and oprod spring. Replace every part in the trigger housing and take a good look at the gas tube, gas piston, and gas plug. I would advise anyone to take the worn out barreled M-14 to a very competent M-14 guru, hand him one thousand dollars, and tell him to make you a NRA High Power Service Rifle that will shoot match ammo to one minute of angle. If he claims it will shoot consistently and reliably to less than a minute -- I advise going to someone who tells the truth instead. The guy who tells the truth will take about a thousand dollars and made one an M-14 that will shoot a minute consistently with one load but I guarantee you that the rifle will not fail between barrel changes (rebuilding / 5K rounds).

When I shot the M-14, I went to such a M-14 guru once a year and handed him eight hundred dollars to rebuild the rifle. He not only replaced the barrel but changed every single part that could be changed to ensure the rifle would not fail for five thousand more rounds provided I cleaned it after a match. I went to this particular M-14 guru while here in Washington for the last five years I shot the M-14 in competition. The rifle did not fail one single time over those five years and I would put an average of six thousand rounds a season through it. Loads were from 150 to 185 grain. The 175 was not on the market at that time.

I doubt anyone puts a rifle through the abuse a competitive shooter does in terms of rounds fired between major overhauls. I still have that M-14 and it is made to take abuse that no service grade M-14 could take in terms of mean rounds between a failure. It probably could take heavier loads better than a rack grade due to how its gas system was made, double lugging, and a complete change of parts every single year -- needed or not.

Despite the durability of this particular rifle due to preventative maintenance and having it made by a very good M-14 guy, I never loaded it to any maximum in any loading manual and I followed a very strict set of my own loading rules when I did load for it. Thats why I advise guys to simply use commercial ammo for them. It is no secret in terms of loading for them but it does require a lot of self discipline and some careful selection of components and process. All for a rifle that rarely shoots better than a minute no matter who makes the thing.

My advice to guys starting with a rack grade M-14 is to note carefully the roll pins and parts that break, and the various failures to do things when they break. When the barrel is shot out, they will have quite a list and thus will know what they want done when the barrel is replaced. Once a guy has shot out a service grade barrel, he probably knows enough about the M-14 to know what he wants done and how to load for one without blowing it up.

The M-14 is a decent rifle but by no means is it any more reliable than anything else of its era.

Gene

Gene, the weapon I was refering to, owned by a former instructor, was a brand new, less than 500 rounds, M1A. The other weapon was a just rebuilt M14NM. Both weapons broke that exact same manner with the first run 175gr ammo.

When I shot the M14NM on a regular basis, the general consensus was to not shoot hotter than the M118NM ammo, 173 gr at 2550, due to heavy recoil pressures. We messed with the 180 gr when they first came out but was not pleased with them.

I agree that if you change out your barrel you need to do a rebuild as the weapon is pretty well shot up. The only thing you left out was the rebedding of your stock. The M14/M1A is notorious for the bedding to go south on a moments notice.

That said, the question, as I understood it, was the guy was going to do plinking and use it as a "collectable", and not comp shooting. IF, it is only plinking then I would not bother with that kind of money.

You shot 185s for 1000 yds? Why not the 155gr? :munchin

Well I don't know about everyone else but I've learned alot about my rifle from this thread. But I still have a couple of questions. I plink with my rifle and gets used on a regular basis. I've only had it for about two years now and have roughly shot about 10,000 rounds through it. Give or take a few thousand. Not one single problem with it. Nothing has broke. Everytime it gets fired it gets thoroughly cleaned that night. Because nothing has broken I haven't swapped out any parts. As for the ammo that I have fired, I think I have fired everything there is for it. I'm not to keen on using re-loads. When I do use re-loads I only use Australian re-loads. I've had some problems South African and South American re-loads. My questions are:

1. What things in particular should I look for if my rifle starts to fail me?
2. What are some of the causes for a barrel to blow?
3. How can I identify the stock rebedding itself and how do you go about fixing it?

Now that LR47 mentioned the stock rebedding itself I think mine has. The parts sit somewhat at and angle in the stock. While this has not caused any problems with the rifle functioning it just bothers the hell out me that it doesn't sit straight.

I do not think that you understand what a reload is.

1. Malfunctions, followed by parts falling apart.

2. Bore obstruction, or very hot loads.

3. If you do not have a bedded action, then you do not have to worry about it. It sounds as if you do not.

TR

First of all is it a rack grade weapon, shich I am inclined to believe.

IF it is rack grade then youa re not gettign the best accuracy form it anyway and 10,000 rounds down the tube would indicate that you have probably burned out the barrel about 2000 to 5000 rounds ago depending on the ammo fired. The big question is are you happy with how it shoots? If after all those rounds youa re happy with the way it shoots youcould cojntinue to failure which should be shortly at the rate you fire ammo.

1. Misfeeds, failure to extract, failure to fire, shots hitting next target over, pins failing in the trigger, extrqactor coming loose during firing, operating rod jamming in the figure 8 rod guide due to misalignement, and those are only some the of the fun things, I am sure that Gene can add more.

2. Do you mean barrel blow out or burn out. For a barrel to blow on an M14 would require either gross negligence or ignorance on the level of "you should not be shooting". TR covered the main reasons for that with barrel obstruction being the primary, with hand loads being the second but in 308 it would require using something like pistol powder in a compressed load. You would proaby get a bolt failure and a face full of pwder before you got a barrel to blow.

Now a burned out barrel, which is what you probably already have, is due to nothing more than shooting your weapon. The hotter the round and heavier the bullet the faster the burn out. It begins with benign throat erosion and then you stqrt loosing lands and grooves further and further up the barrel. You can live with some but the further it goes the further the bullet travels before engaging in the lands and grooves. This decreases accuracy and groups open up as the erosion becomes more pronounced.

3. Bedding is done to National Match weapons to stop any shifting of the action in the stock. If you have a rack grade then you do not have a bedded stock and the weapon's stock probably has crushed wood fibers from the recoil and thus the weapon is already loose in the stock. Since it sets cattywhompous, love those big words, makes me feel smarter, alreardy I would say you are not bedded.

My 2 cents, Gene throw in some pennys too. :munchin

Exchange rate in this case, by my calculations, is about:
1 million USD to the cent.

Rick:

I don't have a clue what caused the problems with the issued 118LR. I doubt it was velocity though. Instead I bet is due to the gas system that is causing some severe stress on parts. Recoil and gas pressures can be controlled in a 14 via work done on the gas piston and plug. Mine has had some work done on the gas piston itself and the gas plug is vented. Not sure if the recoil spring may be heavier or not though. I didn't make it -- only shot it. I do know that the work done on my gas piston and plug reduces recoil while maintaining proper function so I figure the reduced recoil has something to do with its ability to take more of a beating without parts breaking.

The older 'White Box' 118 Match stated 2550 fps but that was based on the issued M-21 or NM 14. My experience is that the currently issued M-24 will get about fifty FPS more than a gas gun. Thats why the M-118 SB and LR state 2600 fps. Because they are checked based on a bolt rifle and not a gas gun. I have some of this 1970s era White Box 118 Match and will chronograph it when we shoot some 24s in a couple of weeks and see what it reads.

At 600 I generally shot 185s that I make and at 1000 I shot either 118 SB or some of my 185s with hand loads. I tried some 155s but found that the issued M-852 Match ammo shot the best of anything through any one of the iterations of M-14 that I had so I stuck with that ammo for 200 and 300. To date I haven't found a better .308 cartridge for 300 yards than that damn M-852 or its commercial equivalents. We never thought of shooting 155s out of an M-14 at 1000 for three reasons. First was prejudice against light bullets. Second, I doubt anyone could get the velocity needed to maintain supersonic speeds at 1000 from a M-14 with anything less than a 173. I do know that I would not even try to get 2950 fps out of my M-14 with a 155. That is way past any envelope I want to push with a .308 gas gun. Third, we were prejudiced in favor of 10 turn twists. Too fast for the lighter bullet for that range.

As the years went by and the 14 disappeared from the firing line due to heavy recoil, less efficient ammunition and cost, we toyed with the idea of having someone make up some 1/13 twist Palma chambered and bored barrels for some M-14s to shoot issued M-80 and the 155s to 600. At 1000 we would still need a twelve or ten turn barrel with bullets of 173 - 190 grains though so this means needing two rifles. I never pursued it because my two brain cells struck together ten years ago and I went to a Match Rifle.

I know the gentleman in question will use his rack grade stick for enjoyment and to treasure. However I also know shooters pretty well and once they see how well something does without tinkering -- they tend to tinker to make it better. So I figure we can at least give him the benefit of our experiences so he can take a better path than we sometimes did.

Gene

Ten thousand rounds and the thing hasn't broken or run full auto due to a peened forward firing pin yet? Lord Have Mercy.

If it was bedded -- it ain't anymore. Rick is probably correct in stating that this rifle has been shot so much that the torque from the receiver has mashed the wood -- thus creating the 'canted upper receiver' effect. I haven't seen this happen though.

Short cycling on a 14 can be due to a number of things. Rack grade 14s break the roll pin securing the oprod guide to the barrel -- thus jamming the oprod to degrees. Failure to clean out the gas piston and plug is another cause. Failure to ensure the gas plug locking nut is tightened to the barrel then unturned until the gas plug can be screwed in. Loose gas plug is another cause. At times guys will inadvertently turn the gas cut off to close and thus no gas gets into the gas piston. I have seen 14s lose the gas cut off locking pin and lose the gas cut off itself -- causing short cycles or no cycles. Hmmm, let me think here. Bent oprod and weak oprod spring are two more, particularly after ten thousand rounds of 'any ammo'. Oh yes, loose gas tube assembly is another one.

Ten thousand rounds? Barrel is gone. Indicators of a shot out barrel? Poor accuracy. This isn't rocket science here. I bet you are getting good velocity though as you are probably missing about four inches of rifling. Soon you will have a paradox barrel.

My advice to Spartan is to have the entire rifle totally rebuilt. I mean every single thing and probably a new bolt as well.

Gene

Sorry Gene, I was kidding about the 155gr. It being a light Palma round and not suitable for the gas gun. As you stated, the required MV would tear up a 14 and the barrel twist is not conducive to stabilized bullets. I believe they be a mite over stabilized with the 10 twist.

I always shot the M852 for cross the course shooting when they dropped the M118NM. The 168 gr was originally made for the 300 meter international course of fire but did well at cross course as well.

We chronoed LR out of all of our M24s for the Palm and Pocket PC Balistic programs. All of our guns chronoed around 2575 to 2590. The folks at quality control say they test chrono at 1560 at 11 (or was it 15) meters from the muzzle. Our chrono was at normal distance. I have sitting on my book case two boxes of M72 30.06 National Match, One box of XM118, Two boxes of M118 Match, two boxes of M118 Special Ball, two boxes of M852, and finally two boxes of M118 Long Range. All the mil ammo that I have messed with over my "short" career of playing this silly game.

Yes folks, 30.06 for the Springfield and the M1C/D, though the D is more prevailent and I would have loved to got a hold of M1 Marine Sniper version. Better than the M1C, atleast that is what some old Jarhead said. :D

wow, i have learned a lot from this thread. the good news is i found one with a synthetic stock for $800. Gonna check more into it later. the bad news is...i met a woman so my money is being redistributed....... :rolleyes:

Look at the synthetic stock closly. It suffers form crushed fiberglass fibers similar tot he wooden stocks. While they are much more durable, they have accuracy problems as well. While I will not say they can't be bedded, they would be a pain to do so, IMHO.

When firing, be aware that the "over the shoulder hinge" on the butt plate is not for normal shooting and it was there only for full auto fire. Since I doubt that youwill be doing full auto, leave it in the closed position. The raised psoition misplaces it on the shoulder and is not needed under normal circumstances.

Hmmmmmm, redistributing money already? Is this the old bait and switch to get her on board or done with loving care? :munchin :D

well, a little of both, but I just met her. Infact me and my buddy where shooting yesterday when she called and asked if she could show up and try shooting handguns because she wanted to learn how.....i think i'm in love :D

They all do that during the dating/engagement phase.

Unfortunately, you do not find out which ones who will keep doing that till they hook you, and then it is too late.

Look on the base bulletin boards to see firearms collections being sold off to finance divorces.

TR

Now there is a dose of cold salts. :eek:

The lad used the four letter "L word".

Just trying to bring a bit of reality to the discussion.

He hands your average chick an M-1A with a 20 round mag and has her empty the thing, she is probably going to be bruised, and pissed.

If she isn't, shoots well, and appears to enjoy it, now that is either a keeper or a sufficiently excellent actress that you might consider keeping her around for a while.

Don't want to let his hormones cause him to fall for the first lass that lets him teach her to shoot. There are babes in the Fayetteville area who probably have more trigger time being "taught to shoot" than some of the kids in the 82nd.

Food for thought.

TR

Of course there is always the other four letter word that starts with an L.

OF course that is the one that gets lads in trouble. :D

Now me, I have kept the same lovbely young lady for 35 years (plus some change) now so what do I know. :lifter

Gene and Long range,

My department picked up two M-14's with the selector knob removed and pined. Both have plastic stocks instead of any wood. They are trying to turn them into Spotter's rifles. They are having immense troubles with every scope they mount to them. They complain that they will not consistently hold zero. I would show them this thread but my "friends" would probably end up saying: "So who are these guys again and what makes them so smart." They are using I 'believe" ARMS mounts and ATN's scopes (why I do not know). They are pushing 168's through them as that is what the state buys and we can go with them and get a major discount. I believe they are Winchesters. They were shooting a heavier grain that somebody mentioned above but not anymore. They are determined to put these rifles in service without spending any money on the 14 itself, just the scope, and mount. Should I let them in on some hints that I have learned here from professionals? I still have to keep reminding myself however, our "armorer" is only 32 years old and cannot handle being told he might be wrong or looking at the wrong item. He says it is not the 14's themselves also.

What would you guys do?