Rucksacks
 

I find this interesting. There are 3 rucksacks issued:

ALICE, been around since Jesus
http://www.mil-kit-review.com/assets/images/alice1.jpg

MOLLE
http://www.special-warfare.net/data_...ackpack_03.jpg

SPEARS
http://www.gregorypacks.com/images/p...backpack_l.jpg

I along with everyone else on this board have years under the ALICE ruck. I have tried to pack 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag and have experienced the "if you haven't broken this frame, you haven't carried enough weight" aluminum frame. Yet, this seems to continue to be the preferred ruck amongst those able to make a choice. Benefit: Light, large opening Disadvantage: If you want something at the bottom, you have to empty it. Aluminum external frame

MOLLE: I have no experience with this one, yet seems to be the ruck conventional army is switching to. Slightly larger ruck with a seperate sleeping compartment attached to the bottom. Still an external frame and have heard complaints from more then one person regarding the frame cracking under weight.

SPEAR's: Made by Gregory Mountain Products, a mountain pack manufacture, for the military with an internal frame and suspension harness. Largest capacity of the 3 with a weight limit at 125 lbs. While that may appear extreme, it is realistic in some situations. Access points on the top as well as the bottom through the sleeping compartment. Disadvantage: Weight and the body is not as wide.

What I find interesting is that most seem to prefer using the ALICE and a few go with the MOLLE, but I have yet to see anyone using the SPEAR's version. What is your ruck preference? Why?

Side note: I have been looking at this one designed by Kelty.

http://www.amronintl.com/tactical/products.cfm?id=646

Have you given any thought to Kifaru?

Having only limited time under the green tick I dont have a preference as to an alternative, but can tell you at my first available juncture I will be finding something other then the ALICE pack.

A for the Kelty pack, Brad has one of them at the Lightfighter Store here on Bragg Blvd if you would like a closer look.

Crip

IMHO...Alice Sucks....
 

But she is sweeter and more reliable than any of the others...
in the end I carry ALICE.

:munchin

My preference from civilian experience is internal frame. I like the load carry better. Always feels like I am carrying substantially less weight. I have looked, briefly, at Kifaru but my civilian experience is with Kelty and I am really impressed with their stuff. Their MMR has roughly the same features, but twice the price. The biggest feature I like is the side zippers that allows for another access point to the main compartment without having to unpack. Group gave us Kelty MAP 3500's and I like the mesh back for airflow. I wasn't aware Lightfighter was carrying Kelty. I will have to stop by for a look.

I dont know that Brad is stocking them, but there is one on the wall there with the rest of the packs. It is OD.

I am with you on the internal frame packs. I have a Marauder and a Zulu and enjoy them both, but neither have the internal capacity of an ALICE. The Marauder is going to be used as an Aid Bag (if I ever get that far...No comments from the Peanut gallery.) The Zulu is more of an intermediate bag and with the modularity that comes with the PALS coverage on the exterior I could damn near add enough pouches to get it close to the CI of an ALICE, but in no way would I want to. I think this would throw the balance/wear characteristics off. I like the MMR and EMR as well, but damn 4 Washingtons and change.

Other than the mesh backing how does the MAP 3500 stack up against other 3-day/assault packs?

As for comfort in the short term, have you given any thought to an ALIPAD from HighSpeed Gear Inc? Again, I dont have one, yet, but there are several of the TAC's here who have them and swear by them. I know of a couple guys out at Sage now who purchased them to make an ALICE more user friendly.

just my uneducated .02 YMMV

Crip

Traded a large ALICE for a Bergen once. That thing could hold more shit that a Ford F-150. Course this may explain why I always got stuck with most of the spare battery's and ammo.

At 3500 cu.in. it provides a lot of capacity. Consider that the main portion of the MOLLE ruck is only 3000 cu.in. It has the hydration pouch and the heavily padded shoulder straps made from the same mesh material. They are positioned closer in on the collar bone and don't ride out on the shoulders. As an Echo, it would be nice if it had a radio pouch.

I have pretty much sworn off the ALICE at this point and will use the MOLLE if need be. I am going to start using the SPEAR's UM21 over the next month to see how I like it. I am in charge of PT for the next month, so time to do some rucking. I just wish it had the side zipper and hydration pouch.

Since we are talking about ALICE frames, Mystery Ranch, who if I remember right, developed the suspension harness system, manufactured a frame for the ALICE called the nice Frame. Although, it is some coin at $219.

i liked the old mountain rucks, somewhat like the Brits' Bergen...it had a lot of the favorable attributes of the ALICE, in my opinion, the weight of the ruck was better distributed and the frame hardly ever bent or deformed...for awhile, i used the frame for an ALICE but some AH with nothing better to worry about than uniformity put the brakes on that endeavor...when i was in BT, we tried the Lowe's system, with detachable pockets, zip-on, zip off stuff, an internal frame, somewhat akin to the SPEARS in appearance....stuff dropped off when going through the woods, it was hard to rig for airborne operations and the zippers rarely worked in cold, icy weather...we gravitated back to the ALICE because, while it didn't hold enough stuff, it was reliable...yeah, i bent my share of frames over the years, but compared to having a pocket with your dry socks in it drop off in the Isar River, it was worth the trade off...

when i was a company commander in Alaska, Natick came up to do a study on soldiers' load...our average ruck, moving about in the Arctic, was around100 pounds...basically, a troop carried his MOPP stuff, two sleeping bags, ammo, socks, food, dry clothes, ponchos, etc...the ALICE packs were filled to the bursting point and they were looking for a solution...it seems, 16 years later, they are still looking...

I have seen them, but for $219.00 plus the price of an Alice, plus mods to the pack itself to make it user friendly I could just buy an EMR/MMR or 2 of the Kelty's.

And on the note of PT. I would rather ruck everyday of the week than run twice. Some of the guys here swear I move as fast with the ruck on as I do running ...ahhh.

Crip

I have one of those old mountain rucks, CF-19 if memory serves me. We had those issued to us in the early 90's in the 82nd. We just could not use them because they required a single-point release system and Division didn't have any to issue, so they sat in the bottom of the wall locker. It's kind of hard to ask the Powers That Be to spend the money on new equipment like this when the troops will not/can not use it. Kind of hinders the whole R&D process.

This what used during my service, the load capability is of course for specific type of uses.







Positive:

+ Rugged design, can withstand rough use and extreme weather conditions
+ Snow covers on pockets
+ good side pockets
+ Separate, easily accessable pocket for stove and other related kit.
+ 80 litre capacity


Negative:
+ Not easily compressable, if not fully packed
+ Somewhat cumbersome to adjust
+ No breakaway EE/other type pouch (Althogh it does come with very basic day pack)
+ Not the easiest to use if combined with a chest rig/harness.

When you guys say "bergen", which one do you mean? Bergen is a general term for a pack, and, IIRC, RM and Army issue differant ones.

Para, you're referring to the CFP-90, a good idea gone very bad with the addition of a crappy suspension system (the adjustable plastic track) and construction by the lowest bidder. The size was good for a cold weather ruck, as it could hold all your high bulk/low weight snivel gear, but guys would fill it up with dense, heavy items (like batteries, ammo, pyro, etc) and the suspension would inevitably fail, or pockets would rip out because they were only single-stitched.

The SPEAR ruck by Gregory was issued after I got out, so I don't have first-hand experience, but the feeback I've heard from guys that used it was almost unanimously negative. Its damned heavy even before you put anything in it (over 16lbs IIRC), has straps everywhere that are difficult to manage, and is really wide at the bottom. Most of the guys I know that had 'em keep 'em in a box at home. On the upside, its issued, so there's no out-of-pocket costs to you.

Kifarus are expensive, for sure, but the quality is incredible. I've had the chance to look closely at just about everything they offer, and I've not been disappointed a single time. The suspension system works very, very well at tranferring the load to your hips/legs. On the flip side, this means you need to keep your waist clear of gear on belts and such, which may not work with your set up. This, however, is true of all internal frame rucks, so it may not be a big issue for you as you already have experience with civilian versions.

Again, I don't have experience with MOLLE rucks, but the prevailing feedback is that the first generation ruck frames were far too fragile for military use. The second generation frame is supposedly much stronger. There is also supposed to be a new bag issued that is a single, large compartment (similar to the lg ALICE) vice the separate gear/sleeping bag set up currently in use. I don't know when these improvements will become issue items, but I believe the new frame is currently being sold by Eagle on their website.

The Eighty-Deuce has the new Molle System now, or atleast some of them do. I see the young studs on the tank trails all the time with their sleep system hanging off their as...back sides.

Crip

Havn't rucked here on post with the MOLLE yet, but we took it too Iraq. It would have been nice to have more than one access point and Crip's right about the sleep system at the bottom hanging off. It seems no matter how tight we had it, the sleeping bag pouch would hang down, bouncing unneccessarily.

I have the MOLLE with the seperate compartment for the sleep system, 1 long side pouch and two shorter pouches on the other side.

It is a piece of crap.

To close the side pouches you route a strap through a loop on the top flap of the pouch. So you have to remove said strap to access the pouch. I'd much rather have something a bit easier to use. I also seem to carry less with that MOLLE than a Large ALICE. Also I can never seem to get the MOLLE to fit well over my IBA.
YMMV, but I'd take most any other ruck over my issued MOLLE.

Ok, I did some searching to refresh my memory. The new frame is more of a Generation III, is made from different materials than the first two that had all the breakage problems, and is shaped differently to better conform to a wearer's back.

The bag, referred to as the 'MOLLE Large', is similar to the large ALICE bag in that it is one big compartment. This gets rid of the sleeping bag pouch hanging off the bottom, which folks here have noted as being really annoying. It looks very similar to a large ALICE bag, but with a zipper opening to access the bottom half of the bag from the outside, no radio pouch attachment points on the inside, what appears to be a snap fastening internal divider (think CPF-90 laced divider, only with overlapping snaps), and a mesh map pocket on the inside of the top flap. The bag is 28" tall, 10" deep and 18" wide, and is 4160ci in volume. Depending on construction quality, this may be a viable, cost-effective alternative to the large ALICE bag.

The CFP-90 I have had to be triple stitched because kept blowing out on us.
It was isuued in the early 90s to us. Thankfully we were isuued the single point releases so jumping it wasnt a problem.
The originals manufactured by Lowe were much better quality

I like that! " Hold more shit than an F-150"...

In the reserve unit I was in here (many years ago...) I was using a black and green REI Morning Star. It was like a footlocker with straps! It held like 5000 ci of gear, internal frame, and padding that would not quit. It was nice as it was a top loading but had access from a front panel also and a zippered section for your bag. Another thing I liked about it, it had a place to slide skis down the sides under the pockets there and mesh pockets on the waist for Nalgene bottles and a detachable waist pack that was waterproof and had a map pocket.

The only thing is, once the Gunney saw that pack, he knew who was going to end up carring all the spare batts and ammo. I think that pack held more shit than deuce and a half!

I was issued a Med ALICE during my active stint and wasn't overly impressed because (1) it killed my back (fixed that with an isomat and riggers tape) (2) it did not hold enough gear for a long CAX. Also, the frames would bend or crack after being thrown out of/into a truck or really rough handling. By the time I turned mine in, it looked like a 100 miles of riggers tape, isomat, and wire....

The ALICE was a good idea at the time but with all the new materials and new thinking in ergonomics, the newer issue rucks are so much better.

Does anyone have any experience with Web Tex packs?

I was fooled at first when I got issued the new SPEARS ruck. I thought it was the best looking piece of gear I had seen in a long time. I packed it with all my gear and went out with the team on a couple rehearsals......... Came back put all my shit back in the ALICE and the spears pack collected dust the rest of the time I was signed for it.

I eventually went with a Tactical Tailor modified ALICE and it was great, cant say enough about it.

On a side note, you ever notice that no matter how much more room your ruck has its always stuffed? Good thing you have a Charlie to come up with the pack list and cross load plan!

I agree 100%. I've used the MOLLE (piece of shit) spears (I liked it, but just too small) Gregory (Great concept, but the fact that it weighed almost 13lbs empty, just impractical) so I have stuck with my Alice modified by Tactical Tailor. I've had it for 6-7 years, and for the most part it's the only one I use.

I just surfed into their site. Their packs look ok, but they don't have enough (any) PALS webbing on them or come in coyote brown.

I've rucked an ALICE for 14 years unless I was a rucksack test-dummy. It has its limitations, but like Max_Tab I use a Tactical Tailor ruck. Mine is the MALICE pack #2.

IMHO, most civilian packs are not properly set up for military use.

They hump better, and are much more comfy, but do not have the external pockets we need for military loads (probably the most popular thing being added to ALICE packs is more pockets). Your average Alpine climber probably does not have to drag out a Claymore, IV set, NVGs, a parachute flare, an MRE, a poncho, a spare battery, etc. quickly and quietly. The civvie pack also does not have to be certified for airborne ops, or being dropped on a lowering line to smash into the ground. The average backpacker probably does not have to hump 125 lbs, of lightweight gear either. Finally, I would surmise that Joe Backpacker does not have to wear his fashion pack over body armor and LCE, or shoot move and communicate (simultaneously) while wearing it. In fact, most civvie packs I have seen are designed to be as light as possible and slick externally, except for hardware tie downs and ice axe lash-ups.

The ALICE pack is a compromise. An ideal military ruck would be sized/sizable, mission configurable, have the extra pockets soldiers are paying to add, better materials and construction, PALS webbing over the exterior, a much better frame, with much better shoulder straps and belt.

Just my .02 and worth what you paid for it.

TR

I swear by the ALICE. Call me old school.
Best thing is the tactical taylor additions.

Two additions to the ALICE that are well worth the money:

1. the extended closing sewn into the top of the main ruck (to keep stuff from falling out).

2. The enlarged top flap....which is where I kept the things I needed quick access to in the dark (ranger handbook, black watch cap, etc)


JM

Classic!

Thank, Longtab. They're supposedly copies of what Brit SF are using, but that didn't seem likely to me. Supposedly the NZ army is getting new packs soon, along with the MOLLE webbing.

Para have you looked at Dana Design?

PB

Dana Design, more specifically Dana Gleason, is the owner of Mystery Ranch as well. None of DD's civilian packs are rated to carry the 125 lbs of lightweight gear noted above by TR.

Mystery Ranch's NICE frame looks promising but $219.00 for just the frame seems a bit steep to me. I am sure once I dont have Cadre to watch out for I will be looking for something to replace/upgrade the ALICE I was issued at CIF.

For now its all I have...level playing ground and all...

Crip

Speaking of mods, anyone here use shoulder straps that they find to be better than the issued ones? Mine are in need of replacement, and besides that, they kill!

A number of places sell a chest strap that can be used to pull the shoulder staps forward across your sternum. They can make the issue shoulder straps more user friendly.

Pro: Helps shift the weight...I liked using them when my arms would start to go numb.

Con: Felt like it restricted my breathing some...so I'd alternate using it and not.

JM

Ditto what W-M said with regard to the sternum strap.

I have replaced my issue straps and kidney pad with aftermarket ones from Tactical Tailor. They make wearing an ALICE much more comfortable, especially given my shoulder troubles. I carry the load on my hips now...

Eagle Industries also makes aftermarket shoulder and kidney pads. I dont have any experience with the Eagle ones so I will leave commenting on them to those that have...

YMMV,

Crip

I use the sternum strap on my camelbak and i feel the same problem, restricted breathing after a bit. I looked at the Eagle shoulder straps, and they seem to be the best, but I could buy 2pr of TTailor straps for the price of one of theirs... :eek:

I only used the issue shoulder straps with a sternum strap, but one other point of consideration if choosing an after-market strap is the adjustment buckle. Eagle makes very high quality gear, but I'm really not crazy about their use of a side-release buckle connecting the upper and lower halves of the strap. Its just another possible failure point, that will leave you in a bind if it should break and you still have miles to go with an infil ruck. TT uses a solid tri-glide buckle. Drill a small hole in the tab, run a loop of gutted 550 through it, and yank on that if you need to let out the strap to dump the ruck quickly. Almost as quick as a side-release, but less likely to fail. Just my personal preference, of course.

Ruck..
 

I bought a Kifaru EMR based on the reccomendation from a couple guys on LF.
I can say that I wish this ruck had been out there 20 years ago when I first started my career. Handles weight very well, its comfortable, and built like a tank. We've got several guys here in my unit that have isince bought them. They are convinced as well.

For what its worth, I used to rely on my large ALICE, and then my 100lb test monofilament re-stitched CFP-90. Now, I cant even look at them the same way.



Dave

I once owned the Dana Design Astralplane Overkill which was the ruck that the cadre of US Army Northern Warfare Training Center used when I went through BMLC. It was far and away better than proto-type rucks that I've been thrown under. It was a great ruck, but not at all suited for carrying the load or type of loads we do in SF.

So, coming from a guy who likes to ruck for the fun of it, my CFP-90 (brand new thanks to DRMO) will eventually fail me sooner than later if I consistently put anything in it that is over say 90+ pounds? I enjoy using it however as it rides nice on my hips. I also had one of the first Lowe Vector packs in the 70's and that lasted a hole season then took a dump. I do notice though that my 90 was made by a plastics company in 96 and is loosing some of its stitching especially along the top flap. I also have a Blackhawk 3-day pack but that thing can't hold much. In anybody elses opinion does any of Blackhawks other long "range packs" hold up nicely?

Longtab or someone else could you please go into more detail. I have loaded my DD many a time above 100+ and never had a problem.

PB

Just because you have loaded it with 100+ lbs doesn't mean it was designed to carry that much weight or carry it often/well. The frame and construction may handle the weight, but if it's not designed to handle that much weight, as most civilian packs aren't, in my experience, you are asking for back/hip/knee trouble in the long run not to mention risking the thing blowing out on you at some point on a trail; not that this doesn't happen with military designed packs.

Dana Gleason has designed some very good packs and continues to do so, but as Longtab stated earlier they, for the most part, aren't SF or oytherwise military friendly by design. There is more to a military pack than just carrying the load. You must have access to what you need when you need it.

Not that I am an expert...just my .02. YMMV.

Crip

Do you think one of the top companies (Dana designs, Gregory, Mountain Hardware) would do a custom design for SF?

I am thinking like a marketing guy here. You guys help in the design, then you get a near perfect ruck and the company can then sell it to idiots like me as the "ARSOF designed and approved ruck".