Does the "Regular Army" hate SF?
 

Gentlemen, I've always believed that it is better to keep your dreams/goals to yourself because if you let others know about what you intend to manifest, you'll end up having to defend your intentions. It seems that many people in the "regular Army" either look at SF as an impossible dream or as something not worth doing. Everyone seems to have a story about how they went to Selection(this also goes for Ranger School too), but they didn't succeed and they then try to discourage anyone else from trying. My reason for this post is not to validate my own reasons for setting my sights on SF. I'm just wondering if any of you guys that came from conventional units had any difficulty with your chain of command letting you go? Kuri OUT.

Long history on this one.

I'll let the others jump in.

I have spoken with soldiers attending SFAS extensively about that.

Much of it is in the timing. If you tell your leadership that you want to go to SFAS right before a major unit event or a deployment, particularly if you are a key player or are in a leadership position, you will probably encounter resistance.

Frequently, the motivation for requesting SFAS is suspect. Many of the students ARE coming to SFAS for reasons other than being selected. These are the ones who fail the APFT, or VW in the first week. Maybe they wanted a free trip to Camp Mackall, maybe they wanted to get out of something back at their unit.

Some units just have a culture that hates SF and tries every trick in the book to keep their soldiers from attending. Some of the worst used to be infantry units, particularly the 82nd or 3rd ID. The absolute worst, hands down, was the Ranger Regiment. They will refuse to allow soldiers to attend SFAS, remove them from leadership positions, re-write efficiency reports, threaten with UCMJ or release from Regiment, refuse to process the 4187, put guys on CQ/Staff Duty for weeks at a time, hide the SFAS orders from the soldiers, refuse to administer required physicals, etc. At the same time, Rangers attending other selection courses get duty time off to prepare, etc. Go figure. Overall, support units give their soldiers less hassles about coming to SFAS than combat arms.

In some cases, the officer leadership is the problem (usually when it is an officer requesting attendance), but in most, it is the NCO chain of command at the E-8 and E-9 levels. Much of that is not wanting to lose their best guys, but in many cases, I think that it is jealousy and a wish that they had done the same thing when they had the chance. Some probably tried, and failed, so that may also be part of it as well.

What is really perplexing to me is that candidates who return to their units have basically been through some great physical training, the most demanding cross-country movement, the best test of operating solo, and the finest land navigation training in the military, an outstanding peer and self-assessment review, and a truly awesome opportunity to see how well you interact with others as a member of a team, for less than a 30 day loss of the soldier. Frankly, I would not care if soldier went, as long as he didn't quit. I know that I would get a much better soldier back, even if I only got to keep him for another six months while he waited for SFQC orders. It really is for the good of the Army and this great nation to let the soldiers try, and let the ones who succeed go to SF. The leaders who don't are putting their personal interests above those of the service.

Any man who sticks it out till the end of Selection gets fully out-counseled on their strengths and weaknesses, what they need to do to succeed, and should leave with dignity and confidence intact. These guys are powerful recruiters (or discouragers) when they get back to their units and talk to their peers about the experience. It behooves us to make their experience a positive one. Most of the trash talkers and nay sayers are probably quitters.

If it were me, I would make sure that no critical unit activities or deployments were coming up, no efficiency report was due in the near future, start getting all of my paperwork together, train-up and drop the 4187 at the last minute, requesting the first available SFAS class. Then keep copies of everything, track the status, and stay in touch with the recruiter.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Kuri there are a lot of folks outside (and some inside) the SOF community that just don't have clue what SF is all about. I find it interesting that those that tried and failed can make up their mind about anything dealing with SF. The training and or selection is just the beginning and someone coming out of the training knows enough to get their foot in the team room door. The real training and development starts from the first day they meet their Team Sergeant and doesn't stop until they hang up their beret. There are a lot or reasons for these attitudes and run from ignorance, as I mentioned, to being absolutely embarrassed professionally by some SF soldier or team. The biggest point of contention from the regular folks is the money available for SOF to obtain the latest widgits and/or for training. Most SF troops fire more ammo in a month during training than many conventional units fire in a year. I realize that there are a lot of variables here and that I have only scratched the surface but I think I can unequivocably say that the primary reason is that most organizations do not want to lose their best troops to something that they either are not willing to participate in or lost their oppportunity because of their own career choices.

Jack Moroney

Excellent posts Sirs.

Concur!

For every few that succeed, there are a hundred that failed or quit...for the hundred that failed or quit, there are a thousand who say "I was gonna try out...BUT (insert excuse de jour here)".
This creates an impression of aloofness OUTSIDE of the organization. Few folks also get training opportunities that we do on a fairly regular basis. This also can create an air of jealosy and disdain seeing the "guys with long hair and square chutes" drive to the DZ in their POV's while the 82nd was trucked out and has been sitting in chalk lines for 5 hours after JMPI in the Carolina sun.

Bottom line-don't worry about what others think...It's what's in your heart, motivating you to succeed, that is important.

Good Luck-

Eagle

Does the "Regular Army" hate SF?
 

A tale from the RVN era or it might even be true!!!


When "SPLASH" Kelly had the 5th Gp. in VN,he was able to have afew men he didn't like transferred the the 9th ID in IV Corp.
He warned the divison CG these were not very good soldiers in his book.
Awhile later CG 9th ID contacted "SPLASH" and said he would like atleast 100 more of his misfits.

:D

BMT

How about Airborne hating SF?
 

My son went through jump school in the summer of 2001 as a cadet so I had an opportunity to revisit the area, albeit 36 years later. The head shed has just about every airborne unit shoulder patch painted on the outside of the building. Conspicuous in its absence, is our patch & tabs. There is a Ranger scroll with a short tab above it. I like the 82nd. I always tour Division when I am in town. The is a 82nd PX with cheap t shirts. My kids looked like 82nd ragamuffins when they were...kids. Shirts there were unit specific, not like at Clothing Sales or the Main PX. Cool.

It's hard to say if "hate" is the reality. I'm sure there is some of that, but more than anything else, I believe that there is a great deal of jealousy/envy of those that have gone on to do more than the regular Soldier.

I am an MI Soldier, and I have seen both sides of the issue. Most MI weenies (pogues, if you will) spend more time avoiding PT and the field than those that are willing to get dirty. These are the same folks that will always comment on "scare me" badges. That is simply a cliche used in an attempt to downplay the accomplishments of those that have done more than the minimum required by the Army. Most flatliners (those with nothing above the U.S. Army tape) are more petty and jealous than anything else.

I am not SF; I am Special Operations Support Personnel. I don't walk around saying "Hey, look at me. Look at my chest". I just do my job better than anyone else. In my experience, that is how most Special Forces Soldiers do their jobs, as well. No bragging, no posturing, just getting it done. Hence, the title "Quiet Professionals".

Thanks...
 

Gentlemen once again, thanks for your input. It seems that when a soldier wants to do things to better themselves, the world is against them. But this isn't a shock because it happens in the civilian sector as well. Luckily, I know how to motivate myself and can accomplish my goals without constant positive reinforcement. Thanks again! Kuri OUT.

Just to add my 2cents worth. The resentment and reluctance to let soldiers try out for SF also extends to here in Australia. Relating my own experience (I serve in our Army Reserve), I applied for SF Selection several months ago and it's only recently that my request was signed off at Battalion level. I still have several steps to go in the process, however the ball is rolling. Based on anecdotal evidence and speaking to other diggers in the same situation, the hold up directly relates to our BHQ being reluctant to let soldiers go, a situation I find pretty hard to fathom. If a soldier has the motivation and desire to further their career's they should be encouraged and given the opportunity - not held back due to a desire to keep the numbers up within the various Company's in our Battalion. I had to push as hard as I could, however being way down the foodchain in terms of rank their is a limit to how hard I could push. The level of support I've received at my Company has been fantastic, mainly due to my 2IC being ex SF and making it known very early when I marched in that my desire is to head in the SF direction once I completed the necessary time within my unit (approx 18 months). As has already been mentioned in previous posts, even if a digger is unsuccessful they generally return to their previous unit a better soldier for the experience than when they left . The situation also extends Army wide to soldiers expressing a desire to try-out for SF. This is more in terms of those wishing to join Commandos (4RAR and 1 Commando Regiment) as opposed to SAS, as SAS is deemed the pinnacle within our SF community. To provide an example our Army has recently introduced a direct recruiting scheme (which I believe the US Army has had for a few years - please correct me if I'm wrong), the main aim being to increase numbers within 4RAR, which is our full-time Commando Regiment. On the whole this has caused a great deal of resentment within our regular battalions, the main gripe being civvies are provided with a short-cut and preferential treatment in terms of the additional and advanced training the receive right from the word go. Whilst I can see both sides of the argument my feelings are that as they have to go through the same selection process with the same standards expected as anyone else joining SF, I don't have a problem with it. Every fulltime soldier has the opportunity to join SF and if they choose not to then they don't have a basis to gripe. Besides, the whole reason for introducing the direct recruiting scheme was the numbers weren't their from within the regular battalions for those wanting to try out.
As I said, just my 2cents worth (more like 5cents with the amount I've written!!)
Take care

Smiddy

Oh shit, the Aussies have arrived :D You're just lucky the third ODI was called off there Ocker.

On topic, my understanding is that here a soldier can't be turned down from going to Selection by his Officers, unless they're deploying. I understand.

A Logs guy just passed Selection BTW.

Time for a VFOG to jump in..

In the beginning Special Forces Chain of Command went from SWC straight to the Theater Command. In the States: CONARC. It then went to JUWTF and up through the State Department. Local commanders, Gen Paul D, Adams CG Ft. Bragg and XV!!! Abn Corps comes immediately to mind., resented having us for Quarters and Rations while having no operational control.

Another problem was that Special Forces was not a Branch or Career field. Officers would come in for a short tour and then return to their Branch. To do otherwise was career suicide. As a result, good career officers were rare. Most were ticket punchers.

The rest I read from other posters is just the normal "sour grapes" attitude of those who fail to measure up. I don't know but I would now guess that the opposite situation exists for the Officer Corps. Special Forces is probably siphoning off the cream of the Career Officers.

Huey14.

We've been here for awhile mate - just been in my LUP doing some Recon :eek: !!!

Cheers

Smiddy

Fair enough mate, welcome aboard :D

Speaking from personal experience and the perspective of an infantryman in the 82nd, there are a couple of understandable reasons. When our CSM sees a guy going to selection, more often than not, he's an above-average soldier, one that adds a lot to the unit, and would hurt to lose him. Knowing that he is an above average soldier, he knows that there is a much higher probability that he WILL be "lost" to SF, as opposed to Joe Shitbag that's going. So he does everything he can to talk guys out of it. But once he receives official word that he's going, he KNOWS he can't do anything about it. Much of the flack and harassment comes from the company level on down in an effort to make it seem, to CSM, that they're doing everything they can to keep a squared away soldier, with a lot of combat experience, in the unit.

Of course, you run across the occasional PSG/SL that tells his guys, "You want out of this unit? You are sure you want to go SF? Good, go for it, get the fuck outta here, cause we will deploy again, and it sucks to be here in garrison. I'll back you 110% and do whatever you need me to do to make it happen." And, deep down (I've seen it personally) the CSM is happy to see guys trying to make a better career for themselves in the Army, he just hates losing good guys with a passion. Which is understandable.

Just got back in from the field...
 

Gentlemen, I truly appreciate the input. My intent was to find more knowledgeable sources to pose this question to and you guys have helped alot. Thanks again.

More later
 

Outstanding question Kuri... spans the decades. (Mr Harsey knew that :) ) Even going back to my time. First, the replies you have received from these men are dead on,although I really don't have much experience about the heart of your question. As far as I knew in the late 60's, early 70's it didn't exist. No doubt it did, unfortunatley #%$#@ politics have ALWAYS been a gigantic factor in alllllll militaries since day one.

Anyway, I'm straying... hmmmm going to stray again... just a bit. Even from my day there was that crap, just from going leg to Airborne.

K, I'll cool it now..... but I do have some ideas for a couple new threads. ;)

The 82nd seems to harbor a great deal of animosity towards the SF community. I have several buddies who came from there and most of them have the same story, "When I told them that I was going to selection they tried to (threaten/coerce/cajole) me into not going. After I came back from selection they took away my (squad/team/section) and treated me like crap." I heard the word traitor bandied about quit abit as well. Another buddy of mine was told by his Squadron commander "there is nothing special about Special Forces." Granted this is all anecdotal but there does seem to be a pattern. One interesting thing that I have seen is that I have not met anyone who came out of a non-combat arms MOS who got a ration of crap from their COC it seems to mostly come from the combat arms.

uboat509..... Don't know about now, but when I was at Bragg that was definately the case and sure doubt it's changed. I was there in 1969. At that time the riggers in the 82nd packed all the chutes for SF at Bragg, at least those of us in training. There was a time for several weeks or so, there was this rash of malfunctions. An investigation was conducted and they found a couple 82nd riggers were, well.... rigging chutes tagged for SF... TO... malfunction.

There was also a SHORT period of time, where somewhere up thier chain of command some officer was offering 82nd guys a 3 day pass if they brought in a beret ( the beret itself). Notice. I said "SHORT"? Wellllll one of our officers upped it one. He told us if we bring back an 82nd soldier, we would get a 3 day pass. That was the end of stolen berets.





:D

Kuri,

I was just relieved of my job as a Platoon Sergeant for volunteering. I am in the 82nd and a Senior SFC.

Reaper I just came across this thread after I PM'd you. It hits home. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.

RANGER X

As long as you were relieved without prejudice, it makes sense, The platoon needs a PSG who will be there in the event of deployment. When you become a known or presumed loss, you effectiveness decreases.

QRQ 30,

Absolutely. I was aware of the risk before I dropped my paperwork. The opportunity presented itself to me after I presumed it was to late. The Recruiters contacted me first and informed me that I fit the criteria that they were looking for. I am not pointing fingers or placing blame on anyone, but merely encouraging one to be aware of the consequences before volunteering. The whole known and presumed loss to the unit makes perfect sense. As far as predjudicial well I will save that subject for another time. Take care.

Ski

Good incentive not to quit.

Rangerx
 

Good luck, and thanks for sharing your experiences.

When I was a young man in the 2d Ranger Battalion, many, many years ago, there was a bias against SF, a cultural thing, as SF was viewed as "slack," a haven for longhairs, guys who wore sunglasses, cruised around with their hands in their pockets, and who sometimes called their officers by their first names while they squatted around fires with tribal forces that they were working with in godforsaken geographical cul-de-sacs of the third world.

Sounded good to me.

I was lucky, though, as I had guys like Roland Nuqui to look up to, and Greg Gardner, and Ron Braughton, and Frank Wallace, who had all come from SF backgrounds. Nuqui, as you guys know, had run recon. Gardner had been an SF medic, Braughton had been with Project 404, and Wallace had worked with Braughton at Det A. So, these guys all influenced me, and corrected my false impressions, and helped me realize that the biased impression that ran rampant through the ranks was incorrect.

For me, SF was the natural progression of a military evolution as a professional soldier. I was subjected to pressure not to go to SF, of course, but I was intent on it, and after all, the choice was mine.

Later, I became aware of the pressures that others suffered. When I went to IOBC, I was hanging out with Kevin Egan, and met a platoon leader in 3d Ranger Battalion who was ostracized pretty hard when he put in his packet. When I went to the 18A course, there was a guy there who had gone with 3d Bat to Just Cause, and had made the combat jump onto Tocumen, and HE had been given a pretty rough time.

As you guys know, there is a close relationship, for various reasons, between the Ranger Regiment and other special operations units. Those other units also happen to procure a lot of their talent from the ranks of SF. Why there is such a bias against SF among Rangers is something that I really do not understand.

I used to believe that it was cultural, that SF represented the antithesis of many superficial things held dear within the old Battalions, and later, the Regiment, like haircuts, no sunglasses, no hands in the pockets, extreme discipline, etc.....but after I was in SF myself, I realized that hair is just hair, it grows out, and can be cut in a heartbeat, according to the dictates of the mission.....pockets exist for a reason, and if you put your hands in them it does not mean that you lack discipline.

In fact, discipline is in the heart, it is derived from your professionalism, and the discipline of the Ranger Battalions was perfect for its role, for the men in its ranks, who are typically much younger than guys in SF.

SF is different.

In retrospect....I think that there was a strata of old NCOs in the Ranger Battalions who just never went SF, for whatever reason....they were too "old school"....something put them off.....who the hell knows. Then you had a class of officers who recognized that they would lose their best and brightest, most independent-thinking sergeants, to SF....and of course that would not be a good thing, for them, thinking parochially, thinking only in terms of their fiefdoms....and there was the effect on discipline, which Rangers always had to guard against, even when they were working with other special ops units, with their long hair, their sunglasses, their non-standard equipment, methods, tactics, and ways of interacting with one another.

Rangers are elite light infantry. They have to operate that way. Their traditions run deep.

SF is SF. We are not infantry. We can operate alone, in pairs, in split teams, in any of a variety of permutations. Our missions are wildly different.

Different strokes.

I myself believed then, and I believe now, that SF can get some stellar candidates out of the Ranger Regiment. Rangers have an op tempo that is unparalleled elsewhere in the Army, and guys who spend years there get seriously experienced and seasoned. These days, with the long tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, SF will benefit, getting an even better selection of seasoned professionals from the rest of the Army, but the Ranger Regiment will still provide some great candidates, considering the types of missions that they do, and the sorts of mission packages that they participate in.

I do not think that the rivalry will ever completely go away.

It is cultural, and after all, we cannot expect mere men to be mature, reasoned, sensible, and to always see the larger picture.

Can we?

Thanks again.
 

Magician, outstanding post. My intent was to find out if anyone else out there has gone through what I'm currently experiencing (my leadership's attitude towards me has changed since I informed them that I will be headed to Selection).
I've decided to use it as one more reason not to fail. This thread wasn't meant to try to G2 anything or get a leg up on what's going to happen at SFAS, I just wanted some guidance on how to deal with the time in between now and when I report to Fort Bragg. I almost feel obligated to thank everyone personally who contributed to this thread because the quality of your posts have helped me tremendously. Guys, thanks again.

brother, I am sorry that you are being subjected to such parochial, short-sighted pressures. We are all in the Army. Perhaps you ought to remind your chain-of-command of that fact. To perceive what you are daring to do as disloyal is bullshit.

fuck it. Rise above it. Take refuge in professionalism, and focus on silence, and grimness, and extreme competence. You are in a hard profession. It requires hard men. Take solace in the fact that you will soon be surrounded by others like you.

that said, you transit the pipeline as an individual. Yes, you attend the various components of the course as a member of a group, and you are tested on your ability to work with others, and integrate yourself with others and function effectively as a member of a unit. But your evaluations are individual, your test scores are your own, and your graduation will be an individual triumph, though you will never survive the course as a solo agent, without the help of others, or without helping others.

it is a schizoid thing, in a way, but never lose sight of the fact that you alone are responsible for what happens to you, and for how you adapt and overcome the various challenges ahead of you. You will have to lead, and you will have to follow. You will be observed, every step of the way, and you will be stunned at the things that your instructors and evaluators document about you as you go.

consider what is happening now as part of the deal.

you are getting ready to step through a gateway, and there will be many of them, and each one will be different, with different challenges on the other side. Many soldiers that you start this journey with will not finish it with you, or finish it at all. You will learn much about yourself, and I tell you now that regardless of whether you survive the pipeline or not, if you walk through each gateway with an open heart, you can learn incredible lessons, and come out of this process enriched beyond belief.

I wish you much luck.

In some ways, I wish that I were a young man, yet again, and could do it all over again.

Invictus

William Ernest Henley (1849-1903)

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Awesome poem.

Also a great Surefire poster.

Pardon the quality of the quick pic.

TR

Great post Magic Man. I worked for Frank Wallace somewhere. I can't remember where. Good people.

I like that poster Boss.

Well, another great question. I think the views of the conventional forces Commanders are what ever side of SF we choose to display to them. We as a force have much more exposer to the conventional side than in many years past. Pior to OEF/OIF we had very little inter-action with our bothers on the conventional house, other than what they see walking around main post and such. That has changed much in the last few years. One of the things I truly love about our job is the fact that we have such wide limits to operate within. But at times some of our fellow SF'ers take the freedom to the limits and bring unwanted attention to ourselves. During the early days of OEF, the boys from 5th did an awsome job making things happen using non-standard uniforms and what ever else it took to make it happen. Well the whole issue of non-standard uniforms came to a head because we had guys riding around in GMV's wearing jeans and flip flops. While this may look cool, it does little to effect the battlefield. We took an operational need to mislead our enemies by operations in non US uniforms into a joy ride. To top these kind of actions off some would do this in the faces of the conventional forces. It does not take a degree in astro physics to see that jeans are not a Afghan native dress or wearing them in a US vehicle is a operational need. So commanders throw the bullshit flag, and our commanders didn't have a leg to stand on to justify these actions. Well we squared away ourselves and now have fixed these small short falls. This is just an example of some of the things we do that is not the brightest. We just need to be smart about when and why we do things, just being a "quite professional" will get you by.

Back to the real question. I think that the conventional commanders see the operational need and respect what we bring to the table. I know in my three tours we have done 2 BDE, 3 BN and tons of company and below ops with conventional forces. Always had great feed back from our SF commanders AAR with the conventional CDR's. Many times we would pass off targets to the CONV guys to give them a bone.
This respect was topped off by a high level US civilian leader's visit to Afghanistan. Well we just lost some key assets to the border fight, and during his visit to one of the remote bases where the Marine were base. A marine CDR stood up and stated that SF is the only game in town and the JTF needs to provide them we what ever they need. The cool thing about this was during that visit we were doing an op and there was no SF rep at the briefing, but the conventional guys had the mindset and took up for us while we were gone. Needless to say I was floored when I heard this statement back down the CoC.

We have the responsibilty to take every oppunitity to educate not only our Key leaders but every person we meet from the lowest PVT to 4 star generals. The more they understand not only what we do, but more importantly why, all the bad feelings will be gone.

Concur with everything but the last sentence.

Some people will never like SF.

Ever.

Best we can do is to make them accept us for what we can do for them. They still won't like us.

TR

Reaper you are correct some people will always have a bad taste in their mouth. My last statement was a little over the top.

unfortunately, that is true, in my experience.

I was flummoxed by it.

my primary weapon against petty prejudice was silence.

backed up by extreme competence, technical and tactical expertise, and a thorough grounding in doctrine. Confidence, not arrogance. It was important not to rise to defend against every snide comment, or attempted back stabbing.

knowing how a conventional commander would approach a problem was useful. Presenting an unconventional option, even when I knew that they would look askance at it, generally was ok, as long as it relied on surprise, timing, and other force multipliers. It had to be viable, even if it was outlandish. Sometimes the most bizarre concepts turned out to be the best ones.

conventional guys are taught to think a certain way. They are products of their own pipeline.

I remember when I went to the 18A course, I was with a bunch of guys who had all had commands, multiple commands, in conventional units. Bunch of backstabbers, top-blockers, kiss-asses and water walkers and yes-men. All that they cared about, most of them, were their careers. Making general. Most of them made me sick to my stomach. These were the kind of guys who could order a platoon to "take that hill" and shrug off the resulting casualties, as long as they did not have to lead the attack. We were planning an operation, and they were thinking in terms of standard infantry tactics.

I listened for awhile, then said, "why don't we surveil the target to determine when they change their guards, set a trap for their relief, ambush them, replace their relief with our guys, then drive up in their own vans and cruise right into the compound?"

they just looked at me, then laughed. "Nah, that won't work." Others said, "they'll never let us do it." They raised objection after objection. They told me that I thought that I was James Bond.

I said ok, then sat back, and faded back into the background.

When this light colonel came to listen to our COO, he was quiet. He did not say too much. So I seized the opportunity. I told him that we had wargamed another option, and presented it to him.

He was all over it.

And that was the option that we planned, after that.

Those fuckers, the other students, really hated me after that. Envy, I guess. They thought that I was a grandstander.

I just wanted to do the op the way that I thought that it could and should be done.

Well, we went out to the field, and actually did the op. It went pretty well.

I was surprised by some of the peer reports that I received after that op. Some were very negative. Some were very complimentary.

But they illustrated that loathing of SF, and the SF mindset, was very entrenched, and it was entrenched even in the brainpans of the guys who were coming to the 18A course to become team leaders.

SF had changed by that time....this was in '92. I had been gone for awhile, and I had grown up in a different milieu. It was more....corporate, I guess.

When I chose to go to SF, I remember the reactions of other Officers I knew (with a few exceptions who all somehow ended up in SF themselves). It was as if I was proving that I really wasn't a professional Officer. A professional Soldier, but not a professional Officer. It's hard to explain, but it certainly was there.

Back then, AD Officers usually spent one tour with SF and then went back to their branch. But not Reserve Officers. Reserve Officers were known to turn down promotions to stay on an ODA, to commute by air in order to stay in SF as they were promoted. In 5 years in C/2/11 SFGA, we had a turnover of less than half a dozen officers... in 5 years.

SF had a particular image, one that Magician described, that attracted many of our members. "Fight smart, not hard", "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying" (the latter referring more to finding out of the box solutions than to cheating in an academnic manner). Sometimes it manifest itself in ways that weren't so smart.

My second Team Sergeant had come from the Ranger Battalions. He didn't look for conventional solutions, but he did insist on some things that made a lot of sense that others rebelled against because they were "regular Army". Packing SOPs, standardized weapons and core equipment, using contingency plans, OPORDs, Warning Orders, FRAGOs and not just "winging it".

The mix of those things he insisted on and the willingness to look for unconventional solutions made us better. A lot better.

But that image that we had back then, and the cockiness that some carried with it, that pissed off a lot of the regular Army. And once they made their minds up, it is darn hard to change them. Look at General Schwartzkopf and his attitude towards Special Forces. If at some point, General Schwartzkopf had been favorably impressed by SF in Vietnam instead of unfavorably impressed, think how much more could have been accomplished in Desert Storm.

We have a huge opportunity. SF accomplished what no one outside of our community thought possible in Afghanistan. But it doesn't take very much to reverse that positive, that "atta-boy".

Does the "Regular Army" hate SF?
 

When the 4th ID was getting ready to move into Cambodia, CCS offered help"we were told they didn't need our kind to fight a war"!! They didn't find SHIT! One battalion from the 101st was attached to the 4th ID, we offered the same help". The only question ask was "is this intel from a US source". We explained the intel had been gathered by US lead RT's. They kicked ass and found more SHIT than the Whole 4th ID.

BMT

Insight like this is the reason I will spend upwards of 6 hours reading from this site while putting up with the music at starbucks...gotta get free wifi somewhere at NTC. Thanks for your post.

FWIW - when the Ranger Battalions were being reconstituted, SF was stripped - many involuntarily - of its Victors to form the nucleus of its expereinced cadre. And so it goes... ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin