Eric Haney on Schools as Targets
 

He was on TV a couple of days ago, on Fox I think, commenting on Beslan and the general topic of terrorists attacking schools. He said he is very concerned that terrorists are targeting schools (taking hostages or just killing kids or whatever) in the US, particularly Jewish schools. He said it is critical for local LEOs to get their SWAT teams trained ASAP to deal with this type of threat because federal units like HRT and Delta cannot be deployed quickly enough to respond if the terrorists start killing early.

While I am sure that there are limitations on what some of you can say in a public forum, I am interested in any comments on what SGM Haney had to say.

:munchin

I am afraid that no SWAT team in America can handle a well co-ordinated terrorist attack on a school especially if they have explosives. If the terrorists are hell bent on blowing themselves up I don't see how you can stop them after they have gained control of the school. Any assault is likely to lead to the detonation of the explosives and the loss of life. As a nation our only hope is to keep them out in the first place.

You have to lock down the facility, delay the bad guys, and keep them out till the cavalry arrives.

To do this you need good SA/intel, a good response plan, an SRT on a short leash, and most of all, dedicated SROs with the right weapons and training to fight a delaying action.

The SRO at Columbine exchanged a few rounds and ran. If you do that with the current threat, you can write off your kids.

I think ALL officers need better training, and a minimum of a patrol carbine and gas in every car.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

This is true.

It took the local LEO's HOURS to enter Columbine high school and the teenage gunmen were already dead.

The solution is not an LEO SWAT team, the solution lies with the US military.

What about letting Qualified Teachers Carry? Maybe just have a carbine in a Locker in their Classroom. Of course you would have to train the hell out of them else a determined student would just pick up and use their weapon after they got shot

Haven't done much Counter-Terror work have you Air.....
Push away from the keyboard, now move out and draw fire!

TS

Sorry TS, Was intended as a reply to TR's statement about a delaying action. Not an alternate course of action all together. I agree that the best folks for the task should be used, but they may not always be available immediately.

The problem as I see it is that if this ever does happen here the terrorists aren't going to take a school as leverage for gaining some unspecified demands. More likely than not their one and only goal will be mass murder. By the time local authorities are alerted and on the scene the terrorists will have consolidated control of the school and it will be all over.

Even worse is that cities like NYC, Chicago and DC have made firearm ownership so difficult, if not illegal, that you can can count out an armed civilian response in the mean time.

If I was in charge of Homeland Security, I'd make sure that we were putting detailed intel on all U.S. schools into some sort of database or file so that HRT or whoever knows what they need to know about the school for planning purposes. Blueprints or whatever, you know?

Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests).

Ramifications of the Posse Comitatus law regarding the Team Sergeant's suggestion? :munchin
Specifically, in a rapid developing school seige where the motives, backgrounds, and national origins of the attackers is unknown. Is this the scenario for the military's action or just FBI HRT?

I agree with TS the answer lies within.

Not with LEO's, there are too much politics in Law Enforcement for us to appropriately and adequately tackle this problem in a dynamic situation. Agencies have revamped there policies to address a Columbine type shooting, the policies and training we have received seems adequate, but we don’t train enough in it to be extremely effective. Also the trainings we have received deals with a few “Active Shooters” not well trained, organized, motivated, Terrorists. These IMHO are two totally separate scenarios.

I would be suprised if even the FBI HRT could handle something on the scale of what Russia recently saw.

Just my .02 cents

The answer is.

Executive Order lifting Posse Comitatus! And let the 1st string players do what they are trained to do.

Yes, I am aware of how the law can be worked around for National Security concerns.

I hate posting in these type threads, as I know the ones that actually have the most important opinions on the matter are least likely to post.

I think I will just :munchin

If there were an incident on US soil a tenth of the scale of what just happened Russia, pray the FBI HRT or any other (civilian) Federal law enforcement does not try to resolve the situation.

The twenty years I stood watch over this great nation there was always one aspect I understood concerning my mission as a soldier in the United States Army, that I was prepared to give my life in the defense of this nation and to order soldiers to their death if the mission called for such an action. (I don’t think the LEO’s take the same oath we do in the military.)

We will accomplish the mission, no matter the odds, we ask no quarter, and we will give none.
Never compare the US military with the civilian law enforcement. They have their job, we have ours.

Team Sergeant

Clarification ?
 

TS,

I am not sure I understand your comment.

Do you mean a military solution as a response to a terrorist takeover of a school on US soil or do you mean a military solution to the GWOT worldwide, before it can threaten our children in schools here at home ?

RC201

I think both. And I agree.

I believe he is talking about a certain group of individuals who are trained to handle this SPECIFIC situtation.


Just my interpratation. :cool:

Just my .02

But i think if this type situation happens there will be a delay by the terrorist to get maxium news coverage AQ seems to want large scale to show their power.The reaction of killing 300 adults vs 300 kids isnt even comparable.

as for the Teachers packing alot of schools already have armed LEOs on site atleast at my highschool did and that was back in 95.

Training is the key

What I was saying is that the US military is the only “force” trained, equipped and prepared to deal with heavily armed terrorists.

We cannot train civilian swat teams to take on terrorists. It’s not feasible.

I propose we stand up three military "domestic" counter-terrorist units. One in Iowa, Central Calif. and South Carolina with an “Executive order” (green light) to deploy in minutes anywhere in the United States to resolve any “domestic” terrorist situation.

I further propose that once a domestic terrorist situation is identified a media blackout is automatically enforced and if broken a mandatory 5 year prison sentence imposed on any breaking this order.

swat teams and FBI HRT is not the answer when dealing with terrorists.

TS

I like the first idea. The second probably violates the First Amendment. I think that's an interesting policy discussion, though.

I’m not going to debate constitutional law with an attorney as I am merely a soldier, but, anything that aids or furthers a terrorist’s cause should be against the law. Providing media coverage during a terrorist’s siege is providing assistance and support to the terrorists.

TS

Concur. Less publicity defeats the terrorists purpose.

You have my vote.

TR

Clearly - however, the US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

We both only get one vote. ;)

So what, if we are lifting Posse Comitatus. Do you really think we are gonna worry about someone's 1st Amendment?

The President was prepared to shoot down passenger aircraft on 9/11. I don't think he will give a rat's ass about the medias 1st Amendment rights if we have a Terrorist Seige on our own soil.

Remember the media (almost) black out during Operation Enduring Freedom?

Donald Rumsfeild telling the reporters stuff like, "You don't need to know that."

:lifter

The Following is the Uninformed opinion of a Civilian:

My understanding of the whole deal is that When the word "Terrorism" is thrown into the mix, all kinds of avenues for military action are opened, at home, Abroad, whereever. I have no concrete evidence to back this up, this is just the way things have always appeared to me.

As for First amendment,what about Censorship Concerning the Military in time of War? We are at War. During WWII, there were TONS of Pics and stats not released to the Public. I've even seen Pics from Vietnam that had Blacked out places. I think the Media Blackout would have to go Hand in Hand with Military envolvement.

Just My .02

If the terrorists are foreigners, why would Posse Comitatus apply? If we were invaded by a foreign army, I do not believe that Possee Comitatus would prevent our troops from resisting that invasion on our own soil. And how would we know the nationality of the terrorists in any event?

AL, do you know whether military CT teams are precluded from responding to domestic terrorist activity?

In WW2 the only way to get to a war zone to cover it would have been either by boat or by the military. There were no boats running and the military would have told them to fuck off. So easier to censor.

The world was smaller during Vietnam, but not as small as it is today. With super cheap air fares, Journos can get anywhere in the world within 24 hours. Which means there's an uncontrolled flow of journos, which didn't happen during WW2, and only seemed to happen (someone correct me on this) to a small extent during Vietnam.

So there lays the problem. Enforcing a media blackout is next to impossible, what with satellite TV and everything. IMHO, befriending the media and giving them a little bit access here and here could give the military a lot more leverage. A bit like how the White House runs things. Fuck up and piss people off, you lose your access.

Could work.

If they were "Confirmed" Foreigners then I don't 'think' Posse Comitatus applies. But in a very dynamic situtation, I think waiting to find out one way or the other waists valuable time. Not to mention some of the most horrific Terrorist acts that have happened her in the last 25 years have been from domestic Terrorist. :munchin

Roger, I agree, there's no time to argue when hostages are involved. If there is more than one armed asshole with hostages then they are terrorists, end of story.

I agree with what is being stated here as far as putting team(s) together to handle such a threat/takeover. While I don't agree with the idea or proposal to "miltarize" the Police here in this country, I, on the other hand, will never agree to have the military act as Law Enforcement and/or a SWAT Team in my little corner of the world. The military has no business in civllian affairs in this country unless the incident takes place on a base, fort, camp, or port.

TS, I bleed red blood and took an oath to defend the Constitution of this great nation just like you did. We have a wall in DC to prove it and new names get added every year because of that oath and for dying for dying for people who most of the time we don't even know. We are not perfect and neither are you when it comes to handling these types of attacks. 9/11 convinced us all of that. I agree we need better training and allot "shorter leash". We also need better equipment. Maybe down the road it will happen via grants, new laws, and/or directives from the State or Federal government. Unfortunately another incident may have to happen to get the ball rolling. Columbine will still be studied for years to come because of what happened there. Out of that came the "active shooter(s)" model for response. Although not a perfect way of doing things we are still going to have the first four officers to arrive on scene going in and confronting him/her/them. Suicide? Probably. But even in the best of situations "intel" about who, what, where, and how will be sketchy at best from students and teachers running past you crying and screaming hysterically. This is our training.

Bottom line is I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

Disagree all you like the bottom line is the LEO’s are not trained or equipped to take on terrorists. Hollywood, Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Columbine have already proved (beyond a doubt) the Fed, State and local LEO capabilities. We’re not talking crack-heads or armed robbers, we’re talking terrorists that have but one motivation, to kill.
Let me throw out a phrase the LEO’s do not use, “acceptable losses”. Tell me that the LEO’s will enter a situation knowing they will/might take 10-30% losses? Not a chance.
I never questioned any LEO’s patriotism, I know you guys bleed red and I sleep well knowing you guys (and gals) are on duty 24/7. My point was the military can and will be ordered into a situation where there will be military losses. Civilian LEO’s can quit and walk away at anytime. Don’t tell me that Joe LEO is ready to “close with” twenty- forty AK carrying, bomb wearing, crazed terrorists on the command of his local police chief, that dog ain’t going to hunt.

Disagree all you like, just pray it never happens on US soil with a jimmy carter type in office.

Before you continue may I divert your attention to the paragraphs below, please take a minute to peruse them. This is a sample of what Special Forces soldiers are trained in and prepared to execute on command. (My comments are not derived from staying at a Holiday Inn or reading books on terrorism, I’ve spent a few years working in this field….)




http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/ct.php

“Counterterrorism (CT). These are operations that include the offensive measures taken to prevent, deter, preempt, and respond to terrorism. SOF's role and additive capability is to conduct offensive measures within DOD's overall combatting terrorism efforts. SOF conduct CT missions as special operations by covert, clandestine, or low visibility means. SOF's activities within CT include, but are not limited to, intelligence operations, attacks against terrorist networks and infrastructures, hostage rescue, recovery of sensitive material from terrorist organizations, and non-kinetic activities aimed at the ideologies or motivations that spawn terrorism:
Intelligence Operations. These are operations to collect, exploit, and report information on terrorist organizations, personnel, assets, and/or activities. SOF have the capability to conduct these operations in an overt, covert, and/or clandestine manner.
Network and Infrastructure Attacks. These are operations that involve preemptive strikes against terrorist organizations with the objective of destroying, disorganizing, or disarming terrorist organizations before they can strike targets of national interest.
Hostage or Sensitive Materiel Recovery. These are operations conducted to rescue hostages and/or recover sensitive materiel from terrorist control, requiring capabilities not normally found in conventional military units. The safety of the hostages and preventing destruction of the sensitive materiel are essential mission requirements.
Non-Kinetic Activities. These are actions that are focused on defeating the ideologies or motivations that spawn terrorism by non-kinetic means. These could include, but are not limited to, PSYOP, IO, CA operations, UW and/or FID.”

"enemy combatants"
 

If armed terrorists are on US soil, I think it could be qualified as a military strike on US soil. That being the case, the DOD is the owner of those targets. I wouldnt even imagine that posse comitatus applies. You wouldnt roll out the local SWAT team when BMP's are rolling down the street. If billy bob has a knife on his mamas throat, while his kids watch, thats a job for swat. If 3 guys hold up in a school with machine guns and explosives, that should be a military target.

But without a doubt, when you have what you had in Russia, combatants with RPG's, machine guns, and explosives, there is no room in that for police, except for perimeter security to keep civilians away.

For a long time the police in the US have had aspirations of being more like the military, and as TS metioned earlier, without success. Wearing a Kpot and weilding an M4 does not an operator make.

I read a book a few years back, I think it was called "Killology" by a LTC. So and So. He described police as Sheep Dogs, and the military as Wolves.

On Killing
 

On Killing... LTC Grossman's web site is www.killology.com

LTC Grossman describes aggressive sociopaths (whether gang-bangers, Middle-Eastern tyrants, video game-addicted shut-ins, religeous zealots or what have you) as wolves hunting the sheep, and LE/Mil as sheepdogs protecting the flock.

As a Marine turned LE, I have to agree with the Team Sergeant about the mindset of cops vs military. Cops really like to talk about "civilians don't do this, civilians don't understand that," but almost universally have no conception the true difference between military and civilians.
A great majority think a 300 yard center mass rifle hit with iron sights is something magical.
Colonel Grossman may or may not rightfully include LE in the calssification of "warriors," but I'd have to add that a great many of them(us) are under-trained, under-motivated and over-paid. NDD may recall a reply I made to his thread on SocNet with a similar subject matter. My department did away with physical standards before I joined... as civil servants, some (or the FOP lawyers) argued that if you weren't going to physically train your force, you could not require physical fitness standards.

Razor knows, my department is the one that dealt with the Columbine H.S. shootings. He's heard my <ahem> strong views on the subject, but on an open forum, I'll just say that for the last two years, our active shooter response training (bearing the grandiose, military ninja warrior name of "RAID" for Rapid And Immediate Deployment) has consisted of four hours of training PER YEAR, of walk-through hallway and room clearing practice (not to be confused with drills or exercises or, God forbid, training). No shooting on the move at small moving targets. No precision shooting (HA! As if). No force-on-force with simmunitions or even paintballs. No IED recognition. No secondary device awareness/avoidance.

Four hours.

Is that 'nuff said on the warrior mindset/mentality of LE? (I know, I know, this is anecdotal and a single sample... but wouldn't you think we would want to be prepared to handle things better next time if a similar situation arose?)

HOWEVER (you knew there had to be a "However," didn't you?), Colonel Grossman argues (convincingly I think) that LE patrol HAS to be the responders... it takes our SWAT Team a minimum of 45 minutes to muster on an emergency call out. My rough estimate is it would take about 90 minutes for a dedicated SMU from the 10th SFG (assuming purely for the sake of discussion that there was such an SMU), with an element continually on standby, to reach Columbine. The shooting was over in 20 minutes. How long would it take for this military force to reach Cheyenne? Albuquerque?

A Beslam-type school hostage-taking? Heck, yeah, send in the first string, and I don't mean FBI's HRT.

But for a fire team of Mujahideen running through the halls of Elementary School, USA, the best (not perfect) solution is to gun them down like the rabid dogs they are (or "wolves," if you will) ASAP. Can LE do that at our current state of mindset, tactics, skill? I doubt it, and it will be a steep, horrific learning curve when we're caught - and we will be - with our trousers down. (recognize that "mindset, tactics, skill, etc," Razor?)

Believe me, I don't think for a second that LE is capable of conducting counter-terrorist operations, for a whole host of reasons that go beyond civil servant mindset vs warrior mindset, but the differences in mindset is the biggest stumbling block by far. If we experience school shootings of the type the Isrealis suffered in the mid-to-late 20th century, we're going to have to learn to immediately flood the area with gunfighters (of whatever flavor) and accept some casualties. I happen to think we're at war, or anyway Islam's at war with us, and the less time spent in the denial stage the better.

I've been wrong before, though

Good post, skibum. However, having seen you shoot (albeit on a relatively static range) I don't think you have much to worry about in the 'lack of training' department. ;)

The biggest difference that I have seen between Mil and LEO mindset (from an outsider's view of LEO, mind you) is captured in the seemingly popular LEO logo '1*'.

How so on the logo Razor?

As was explained to me once, it's a play on the phrase "One Ass to Risk", and serves as a reminder to LE officers that they are putting their life on the line everytime they leave the station. Therefore, they should consider the danger before taking actions that could get them killed. *

While soldiers and their leaders need to be aware of the dangers involved in a mission and mitigate those within their sphere of control, mission completion comes first. You may not want to assault the well defended machine gun bunker, but if its standing between you and the OBJ with no way around it, by God you do what you have to to get the job done.

* Note: this was how it was explained to me by a cop buddy, so if other LEOs have a different interpretation of the logo, please feel free to educate me on your point of view.

Great post Skibum…. I concur with most of what you said and totally agree with your statement;

“ a fire team of Mujahideen running through the halls of Elementary School, USA, the best (not perfect) solution is to gun them down like the rabid dogs they are (or "wolves," if you will) ASAP”
Every police dept can have an “Emergency Shooting Response Plan”. That needs to be in place with every police department throughout the United States.

Unlike SGM Haney I don’t think teaching LEO’s “how to kill” is the answer. It would not come off well with the other 99% of their everyday line of work. You would end up with a very aggressive police force and one the “people” would not want “protecting” them.

I don’t have al the answers, but my plan for a few “Domestic Counter-terrorist units is better than the SGM’s in my opinion.

TS

To elaborate...
 

"1*" = "one asterisk" = "one ass to risk"

I'm sure you didn't need me to explain that, though, NDD.

Emergency Shooting Response Plan
 

Two years ago, my department made a feeble effort to get everyone "IC 200" trained (It's a part of the ICS - Incident Command System, pioneered by wildfire agencies but based on the military model of a command staff)... we spent 4 - 6 hours bitching (not me, of course, being a new guy I professionally kept my big mouth shut) and listening to a guy who didn't really understand it himself try to "teach" it to us. We were doing it to "get on with this Homeland Security stuff" as one Lieutenant explained it.

Having gone through the training a year earlier as the training officer for the water rescue team where I live, I wondered why it took two days of solid, knowledgeable instruction to seasoned, motivated rescuers, and only half a day to cops who don't know (or care to) the difference between ABCs and AEDs.

Now I know.

I'm sure that, if asked, someone on the staff here will say we have an Emergency Shooting Response Plan, and may even be able to come up with something that sounds reasonable (not doable... two different critters in LE), but if you ask one of the rank and file, you'll get a blank stare. That's a long-winded way to say that, yes, every department needs to have one, but don't.

Of course, I may be tarring all of LE with the same brush; one of my Sgts agrees with me that we are way behind when it comes to training, and says that other metro agencies do better. But, Jesus Christ, there are cops and staff here that will have to live the rest of their lives with what they did (or failed to do) at Columbine! The whole blame/ lawsuit/ risk/ career jeopardy avoidance keeps us from learning from our mistakes. I can only hope that others are smarter.