75th Make Good SF?
 

Hello, I am currently a senior in high school about to sign a Ranger (Option 40) contract with the active duty Army (E3 pay grade) as an 11B. I am confident that I will be able to be a successful Ranger candidate. However, it has always been a aspiration of mine to join the SOCOM community, and I think I may perhaps wish to try out for Army SF someday.
However, I was wondering if former Rangers make good Special Forces soldiers, or are they really two different aspects of SOCOM that usually just stay separate? I have asked soldiers this, and they really can't answer since they aren't SF. I was hoping some QP's on here may have been former 75th that could answer this. Thanks in advance, and I hope I'm worthy enough someday to serve alongside those who dedicate their careers to the welfare of this great nation.

Since you enlisted to be a Ranger, just worry about being the best Ranger you can.
TSBIYF:D

Hello SPECTRE1,

Nicely articulated post. What you are asking is not really a question that plays one into another.
More likely, you can associate those who are motivated enough to do something that is difficult (and do it well) as being successful in doing other things that are also difficult - and doing THEM well.

The Rangers are part of SOF, but they do different things than Army Special Forces. Additionally, if the Rangers and Special Forces were both tasked to do the same thing, they would go about it very differently.

There is an old joke about Rangers and SF being ordered to take a hill....
The Rangers gathered their Battalion, planned their operation, laid on additional firepower, ran battle drills non-stop for 72 hours, refused to eat, did additional physical training and honed their marksmanship capabilities. Then they charged and secured the objective with 100% enemy killed and minimal friendlies wounded.

On a neighboring hill, a Special Forces A-Team was tasked with taking another hill...they went to their hooch, lit up cigars, drank some local hooch with the indig chief, and called up the Ranger BN. Mission still accomplished, just in a different way :D

Focus on your 25 meter target, enjoy cheerleaders, do well in school, keep yourself physically fit, remain mentally straight, and enjoy the experiences of learning to be a Soldier when the time comes.

THEN, learn to be an expert infantryman as a successful Soldier in the Rangers / Infantry / whatever you so choose. You may enjoy that lifestyle and mission profile. Should you find yourself wanting something different, then Special Forces may be an option for you to explore.

Bottom line, it isn't the unit you came from that makes you an exceptional choice for Special Operations, rather it is much the opposite...simply stated, Special Operations is made up of exceptional men who happen to be Soldiers.

HTH

Eagle

2nd post, FAQ, and no rebuke? What is this, the 'kinder, gentler' PS.com that I've heard about??? ;)

Hey, it's the holiday season..."We're gonna press on, and we're gonna have the hap...hap...happiest Christmas since Bing Crosby tap-danced with Danny fucking Kaye."* ;)

As for Post#1 - there are many threads within this very Forum which already have the answers to that queston. Bottom line is - it depends on the individual. Now, enjoy the readings.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

* Clark Griswold

well MERRY F-ING X-MAS to you, too. I SHOUTED all the letters in "The Search Button Is Your Friend"!

Have you used the Search button yet, and read the threads there, or are you asking for personal attention?

TR

I think he wants some personal attention.

SPECTRE1 -

One of the finest SF soldiers I ever knew started his career as a cook. That's what I said, a simple cook. Was a fine cook, respectful to his pears, a job well done each and every day. When he went to the SSG/E6 board, the board Pres./SGM asked, "Sergeant, what would you have changed about your career thus far in the US Army?", His answer was, "Nothing Sergeant Major, my career so far has been everything I expected from the US Army."

"Sergeant. Is there anything you would like to ask the board before we conclude this review?" "Yes Sergeant Major, I would like the opportunity to attend the Special Forces Qualification Course conducted at Ft. Bragg, NC before my time in the United Stated Army is finished."

"Very well Sergeant, dismissed."

"Thank you Sergeant Major. Thank you board members."

Be the best you can be in all you do. Don't worry about finding us, if you possess attributes and attitudes that are in line with Special Forces, trust us, we will find you.

Its also cool, when a Special Forces soldiers leaves the regiment, finds himself as the BN SGM in the 25th Infantry, Hawawii, and sits as the board/pres for young NCO's coming up in the ranks.

What makes a good SF soldier
 

And I, Dusty and some others know a former Army trumpet player who was a shit hot commo sgt in SF and spent at least twenty of his years in service in SF.

I, myself, started my career in 1/75 and I believe it made me a better soldier.

It takes all kinds.

IMO an outstanding training regimen for an SF aspirant to undergo in order to ingrain proper combat patrolling habits as well as raid and ambush techniques is Ranger school; this will facilitate the performance-oriented training you may give to your students one day. You'll also learn whether you're tough enough for Selection in some areas such as mental and physical discipline.

In those aspects, and maybe more, I would say "Yes; Rangers can make good SF soldiers."

The sooner you learn that your body will do what your mind says to do the better whether Ranger school, band, cooking classes or wherever...

I, too, started out as a Ranger before going SF. The Rangers are & were the premier Infantry in the entire World. That being said, they are not Special Forces!

Start out as a Ranger and learn all that you can. Then if you still have a burning desire to be the best that the Army has to offer, try out for Special Forces.

Yes sir, I have used the search button and read the forum rules. It didn't appear as if this question was already asked when I looked. It appears that was a mistake, my apologies. No, I am hardly looking for personal attention, just an answer. My mistake, sorry.

And thank you to all who answered, I appreciate all of the information. Also, thanks for your service, we wouldn't be where we are without you.

First of all - pink font not available! - Hey! I don't want crap from someone who PAYS to have his Christmas lights put up!

Secondly, mea culpable for NOT knowing that TSBIYF meant 'The Search Button Is Your Friend'! I thought it meant 'Team Sergeant Brings It, You Fu#*ers!'. Cripes! I'm only a former enlisted man. We depend on you ossifers!

SPECTER,

Would a good high school football player make a good high school wrestler?

Does that help you relate?

Cross polinazation violation! And MR I-live-in-a-one-story-adobe-with-a-flat-roof-on-a-cul-de-sac, Damn right! I hire someone to go up there! Its a pitched roof, three freaking stories to the cement patio/walk-out basement (I hate this house). I won't ever watch them put up the lights! There ain't a PLF in the world . . .
As for that TS crack. . . now that's funny! (you can wear the Handcock avatar for a while.)

*

Regiment molds young killing machines one fire team at a time.

A smart ranger will make a great soldier in almost any environment, sf included. I love the upbringing I've had in the army, and have done well with what I've been given, but wish I started out as a PFC in Regiment as opposed to anywhere else.

And yes, I agree Ranger school will give a good concept of patrolling, small unit direct leadership, and lots of scenario based--don't let the notional fairy bolo your patrol--mdmp choices that'll make you begin to think like a qp, on the fly, no matter what your rank is, so make the most of it, and you'll learn a ton in addition to getting a tab.

Subliminal message here? I noticed that you capitalize Regiment (I assume 75th Infantry) and leave SF lower case. The shift key is next to your right pinky.

Not at all. Its been a minute since I've had a little corrective training.

I hold both Regiments in high regard.

Not true in the least bit. I have known/know quite a few smart Rangers (my father one of them) who didn't/doesn't belong anywhere near the missions which set SF apart from the remainder of SOF.

It takes a different mindset to be a good SF soldier. ;)

"The conduct of unconventional warfare carries heavier demands than the wearing of a beret and the mastery of unusual firearms. Unconventional warfare is a state of mind as well as mission and distinctive set of tactics." -Col.(ret) Hy Rothstein

Perhaps you think that way because you appear to have served in neither of them yet want to offer an 'informed' opinion on both.

Cric is correct IMO.

Richard :munchin

I beg to differ
 

The Ranger Tab as well as the EIB and Jumpmaster is required if you would like to make a career of Special Forces. Let me be the first to tell you that you will not be promoted to a rank of being in charge of troops without them. Of course there is the exception of the few superstars, but then you have to ask yourself if you are a superstar. The earlier in your career you get them, the easier life will be.

Can a lackluster soldier make a good Special Forces guy?

Ooh! Ooh! I was! I was! :D

I've known many Rangers, who did not do well in SF. Seems they were, well, more regimented. They really liked the light-infantry better and returned to have excellent careers back in Batt. They got the SF tab, but never called themselves "SF". They were rangers, always were, always will be. Having the SF tab for them helped and hurt their ranger careers. One was passed over in becoming a 1st SGT in Bn because he had a SF MOS, some thought he would leave again. So he left 1/75th, headed to Hawaii, (25th Inf.), made E8, retired.

Excellent soldiers nonetheless. I know three rangers in 2/75, now, who wish they could get away from the CAG support role, and become a light infantry unit again. They are Sr. NCOs and hate what has become of Bn.

Many have been promoted to Co, Bn, or Grp SGM without a Ranger Tab. Many have been promoted to Co, Bn or Grp Cdr without a Ranger Tab. Many a retired Ranger have run for politcal office and failed to be elected. Many a ranger and special forces soldier has had difficulty with retirement because they have failed to adjust and overcome.

There were some of us who didn't really want to be Rangers. (The absence of pink is deliberate.) Making Ranger a pre-qualification for SF, IMO, will deny SF many good Soldiers. "Ranger" as a pre-requisite is going to change the "cut of cloth" to looking pretty Ranger-plaid.

Or Jumpmasters. :D

Did Too. Not my fault Bill J is R/G color blind.:D

Bump
 

I never looked good with a High and Tight. I was much more effective wearing a welding jacket, long hair, hands in pockets, drinking coffee.

I lacked a certain luster myself.

:D:D:D

There were some of us who didn't really want to be Rangers./quote/Dozer523

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Dozer........... Don't get me wrong I believe that the Rangers are a damn fine outfit but they weren't for me......... After I got back from NCO school I was "requested" to go for a Ranger tab by my CO...... The 75th wasn't in existence then,what you earned was the tab..........I "respectfully" told him I wasn't interested,I had already earned my EIB,and got my promotion to E-5 because of my standing at NCO school...........I was the youngest E-5(19)in the Battle Group.........I had only one thing on my mind and that was to get into SF after I re-upped.........SF was where my heart was and will always be.............Zonie expressed it better than any one I've ever known.............;)

Big Teddy :munchin

Small tab to be a LDR in SF
 

This is total BS; Ranger school is a Jr Officer/NCO leadership school, not needed for anything other than teaching basic skills to new Soldiers. These skill sets are taught at the Qualification Course, I know I was an instructor there. I only heard from two Bn CDRs during the mid 90s that they wanted all Tm Ldrs to be Ranger qualified, I happened to be a TM LDR at the time and told them it wasn’t necessary, they agreed it was for the young Officer with less experience that needed it. As for Tm Daddies I only had two out of my 22 years, Ranger qualified and they had spent all their time in SF and only went to the school for promotion points. Those coming out of the Ranger Regiment have a very hard time adjusting, for the most part, to the SF way of life. When they hit the Teams the first adjustment is we are all leaders, rank only matters for responsibility, if its commo training then the commo guys are in charge and so on. Being a JM is a matter of pride, we use to make it a priority to let the new TM LDRS go up front because their careers only allowed them a short time to do this. The NCOs had a career to do it, most TM SGTs encourage all to go and by the time a NCO gets to be An 18Z he is most likely a JM. EIBs are nice for the Infantry units and we do send the JR NCOs to get theirs for promotion points, doesn’t make a hill of beans otherwise. You will always have the badge hunters most of the time they are the guys a Team can do without and the TM SGT sends them away to one school or another, the “got ‘a have members are kept close and sometimes suffer for being so. OK my two cents, I think I have a diverse enough back ground to make such comments, feed back??? By the way there is only one Regiment and that’s the 1st SF Regiment.

I think that we are analyzing this incorrectly.

Initially, it is never a bad idea to get guys into SF that have a good foundation of soldiering skills. Joining the ranger regiment at 18 years of age is a good way to acquire those skills in a short amount of time.

Second, because of my present occupation, I realize that the older a man gets, the less testosterone he carries. In my observations, I note that large amounts of testosterone lead to small amounts of forethought. Parachuting onto an airfield in the face of ZSU-4 fire is a mission best done without thinking much about the mission beforehand. Ergo, this author at 19 years old bailing out of a C-130 in Panama.

Conversely, SF missions require a ton of complex forethought. That same 19 year old that would gladly invade a jungle island armed with only a knife will have a little tougher time planning and conducting a year-long mission to conquer and pacify that same jungle island. He's 19 for Pete's sake!! If the wind blows in the right direction, all of his blood drains from his brain to his genitalia!

I'm not saying that SF is a low-testosterone sport; far from it. But, SF does require a definite maturity level and skill set that is generally unheard of with young guys. Ranger missions, on the other hand, often require some good old, en masse, well-rehearsed ass-whooping that is tailor-made for young dudes.

There is also the chronogical fact that the older you are the less BS you are willing to bear.
As for the "with only a knife" stuff . . . only if it's Bill's knife. :cool:(Is it REALLY almost Christmas?)
PS. I knew, if I waited long enough, I'd finally agree with Bennett.

When I first got to Group, there was a lot of experience among both the NCO and Officer Corps with guys who had fought in the original Airborne and Ranger (before there was a Ranger school) units of WW2, the OSS, various foreign military units, the Korean War, and all over SEA, Latin America, and Africa.

Ranger school was looked upon as an entry-level Squad/Platoon Leader course which had grown in importance due to the emphasis on small unit patrolling by Light Infantry during our lengthy CALFX in RVN. It had also grown (like the BAC) to be viewed as an important confidence/leadership development school for young, inexperienced junior Officers and EM/NCOs.

My first B TM SGM was the first 1-0 for RT Alaska and had led the second cross-border mission for SOG; my first TM SGT had several tours in B-52 and had been an instructor at the MAC-V RECONDO School. A good number of our Officers were prior service NCOs from SF. These men were our teachers and mentors, and their focus was on teaching us to do those basics correctly as a skill-level 1 task while pushing us to further develop our PMOS skills and emphasizing the necessity of cross-training.

It was the SF way.

Ranger school at that time was more-or-less reserved for the rest of the Army who needed the slots and, other than patrolling as taught in SFTG and learned under the tutlege of our experienced NCOs in the units, our more formalized training was the IMA 1-0 School run by NCOs and Officers who had served in the 'Projects' in RVN. The Army view towards an SF NCO going to Ranger school was one of "Why are you here? You've already had this training and you're taking a slot from someone out there who needs it...are you badge collecting?"

I was back in CONUS in the 7th SFGA when they formed the Ranger Bns and we were stripped of our Ranger qualified NCOs who 'were volunteered' :rolleyes: for the leadership positions in those first two Bns. A number of them - senior SSGs and SFCs - retired because they did not want to go be a SQD LDR or PSG after having led platoons and companies of indigenous forces on multiple tours in RVN. Our Group CSM who wasn't Ranger qualified went to Ranger school at 43 to be the CSM for the 2nd Ranger Bn - he was the Honor Grad for his class. Go figure.

Throughout my time in Group, I saw good, mediocre, and not so good Ranger and non-Ranger qualified NCOs and Officers come and go.

My point in all this is that as much as some things change, it will always depend on the individual - whether this 'XXX' qualified or that 'XXX' qualified or some other 'XXX' qualified or not - some are SF material and some never will be. It is what makes SF what it is.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

PS. I knew, if I waited long enough, I'd finally agree with Bennett
 

Ah, Dozer I get my Christmas present early this year, thanks man.

Bennett - Don't ask me to take over any duties at the local chapter when you're finished, I'm not qualified, missed that badge, still working on the "Magneto Kick Starter" Badge, followed by "Titanium Welding Alloy" badge, shit, damn bikers.

one ranger
 

Only had one ranger from bn come to one of my teams. never made the mental transition. Never liked what was different about SF and was unhappy about what was not. Tried to play rank when he could with the jr. guys but was upset when a sr tm guy put him in his place. Worked with a ranger on a committee at SWC, prefered to be addressed as "Ranger L.", went back to Bn...

Gotta agree with Don.

MVP

*Not SF or Ranger tabbed*


I was in the non-qual program at B/1/20th SFG(A) until, for financial reasons, I had to leave the unit for a while. At B Co, we had a few guys from the 75th. One of those really made the transition to SF well. One of the most stand-up guys ever to PT me until I puked. The other two, while good Soldiers and stand-up guys, just didn't seem to fit in. Screamed "Hooah," a lot, spent a lot of time at parade rest and position of attention. Got a lot of funny looks and a few laughs. Seemed like most of the other guys just had a hard time taking them seriously, not as Soldiers, but as SF.


Once again, just personal observation. I am neither SF nor Ranger tabbed.