Precision Rifle
 

Hi guys,

Ok, first; I have searched and been educated on precision rifles, not extensively of course. I in no way have any experience with such a rifle since my professional time was spent with a handgun and a shotgun. Then later a patrol rifle.

This said platform I want to be dual purpose unless I am educated different. First and foremost a hunting rifle which can be backed up as being used for other survival purposes. Mainly taking four legged antlered animals.
I have a Remington Model 721 .270 cal but am looking to get something else that I can get spare parts for. Some parts of the 721 can no longer be had, do hobby gunsmithing on the side now, that is how I know that. This rifle must be rugged, easy to maintain and somewhat accurate. I don't think I need to be sub 1/2 moa for a hunting/survival rifle, correct me if I am wrong please. Bolt or semi? Cal for mid to long range with good kinetic energy transfer?

Anyways, wanted to get some opinions from guys who have used these types of rifles for real and not get the hype, I know that is why I am here and that is why I came to this site, tired of the airsofters and arm chair commando opinions.

Thanks in advance for the replies.

:munchin

You didn't mention all the types of precision shooting you are doing, you simply mentioned hunting and survival.

If you just need a fairly accurate rifle for hunting, there's many options in the highly accurate range. Just about any bolt gun with a synthetic stock could be considered "rugged, easy to maintain, and somewhat accurate."

You need to define what you consider mid to long range and what targets you are shooting at that range. Kinetic energy TRANSFER is largely bullet construction dependent, kinetic energy LEVELS are largely cartridge, bullet weight and shape, barrel length, etc, dependent.

You need to also mention your price range and your price range for optics.

Then tell us if you plan to reload.

Next, are you shooting matches or doing group shooting or what. Plenty of thin barrelled hunting rifles will put rounds into 1" + or -

A Rem 700 action is about as common of an action as can be obtained. Spare parts are everywhere. If it is trued then accuracy will be extreme.

The 308 cartridge is about the most common cartridge available and can be obtained almost anywhere. It is available in many configurations such as Federal Gold Medal Match. If you learn to reload then ammo availability becomes less of a problem

The problem with a mid to long range survival rifle is going to be the sighting system. Telescopic sights are going to be a problem over the long term and the really durable systems are really expensive. Competition iron sights are not really geared for hunting and I do not know anyone who makes a really good and durable long range hunting iron sight. Parts and repair are going to be major problems to solve.

Something to consider is what does survival mean to you. There is the Mad Max wandering through post apocalyptic mutants and then there is Mormon stockpile food and water in your basement waiting for the Moroni to blow his horn styles of survival.

Another very serious consideration for you will be caliber. Noting where you live, there are some pretty big critters roaming around.

I built a .308 mountain gun a couple years ago, took it elk hunting, and put three good shots into an elk before he dropped for good. I am quite sure, if that would have been a bear, I would now be bear poop.

The .308 is a good caliber for a "survival gun" here in Missouri. In the Rockies, the animals are bigger, as are the ranges. A .308 would be my absolute-minimum caliber.

You also have to carry the gun, and the hills in Utah are big. I like light guns, and shoot a #3 taper Lilja barrel. However, you are not going to get many shots through this barrel before heat becomes a serious accuracy factor. Also, having a short-action round decreases weight substantially versus a long-action.

In your area, I would seriously consider either a .300 winchester magnum, or a .300 winchester short mag. Very good ballistics and knockdown. Good long range rounds. You can load light for whitetail, and load heavy for bigger stuff. (If you don't reload, find a friend who does.)

A friend recently built a .300 win short mag, going with the short mag to save weight. He built it as follows: Rem 700 action(milled), #3 Lilja barrel, MacMillan stock, aluminum pillar bedding, Leupold glass, talley rings/mounts. The gun is a tack-driver, and has already proven itself well on elk and whitetail.

For your 721 parts, do you know about Numrichs? They are probably the largest supplier of used firearm parts.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=4335

Interesting,

Concur with my brother OPs. First need a bit more diffinition on use. Besides the 700, don't over look the Savage 110 action (easy to change bbls at home) and the Mauser 98. For a chambering besides the .308, .300 WM and WSM dont' forget the 30-06. All these .30 cals will work and you'll be able to find ammo. There are a few models of the 700 and 110 that come with irons sights (not the best but backups). My hunting rifle is a Harrison and Richardson 340 (Yugoslavian 98) in .308 with a Leupold VXII 2x7. My battle rifle is a 18" FAL with ARMS mount, mounting a Leupold 3x which has proven to drop whitetails at 300m.

CD

I'm also in the market for a mid-longrange hunting rifle and have decided on the caliber, .300 but not the platform. Though I am leaning toward a Remington 700.

TS,
Take a look at the Tikka T3 rifles, they are great values, and a really good general action. I like the T3 over a Rem 700 any day. If you want to go a few steps up, the Sako TRG comes in 300WM and is one of the best rifles available.
Justin

My gunsmith said the same thing "a while ago". I've played with his Tikka and am impressed. I've been looking at the Sako as a basis for a .338 build. Unfortunately, I can't afford to do it right now so it's on the back burner.

Peregrino, the T3 is really a great choice, but there's other good ones too. The new Sako A7's are nice, and cheap, Savage makes a good rifle, though I don't like some of its quirks, it really is a good time to be in the market for a decent bolt gun. The Rem's can be customized of course, (there's downsides to the Rem as well) but the others aren't far behind.

For a .338, Sako makes a TRG-42 in .338, it runs about 2700 if you find a good deal. But you can't beat that rifle, for a factory gun. My TRG-22 will shoot just as good as my customs, which is basically saying it will shoot better than my abilities.

If you guys are ever in my neck, we'll get you behind our stuff and turn you into Sako/Tikka believers, haha.
Justin

The Tikka has a weird recoil lug.

I picked up a Thompson Center Icon in .308 Win. Might be worth looking at them.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon_...ion_hunter.php

Tikkas are nice too.

Wow,
 

Hey guys,

Sorry been away from the computer some time and only have enough time to post this quick thank you. You all have given me alot to chew on even with some of the PM's that I have received. Having come from the Boy Scouts and then working in LE I am used to being prepared, being prepared for the worst case scenario and hoping for the best and being prepared for the realistic. Sorry, I don't know of any zombies in my AO, LOL. As far as range and caliber, yes I have considered alot and even have some tenantive ideas. I would not go below a .308 cal. and I am leaning towards a larger caliber even though I am not against going with the .308 cal. totally. After continued reading here and elsewhere, been really thinking of the Rem 700 action. While just browsing the Internet just after my OP, I found this site; http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/.
Just wondering on the feasibility of accuracy with a system like that. My understanding, can and willing to be corrected/further educated; is that taking the barrel on/off impares accuracy. Is that not correct? That got me thinking about this system, I like the fact that I could buy two different barrels and basically have a modular system for varying scenario's. But then again this is coming from my VERY limited knowledge of the subject. Still reading Ultimate Sniper and getting alot of ideas from there to.
And, as far as more info, well really I just want something that will take care of big game in my AO, my thoughts are that if it can do that it can handle any survival situation; and ranges can be so varied that I can only generalize it this way, somewhere between 400 and 1500 yds. Most hunting here is between those ranges with the 1500 yds being the extreme, have a relative that took an elk with a .338 at that range.
And this is going to be a work in progress, I want to do it right from the beginning I realize that there is no perfect platform and things may even change but if I start off with accurate information, I may not have much change to deal with.

Thanks guys, keep it coming . . . . .

What is the best group that you have ever shot, and at what range?

Iron sights or optics?

What do you plan to engage with it, humans or game? Singles or multiples?

What game animals are you looking to hunt?

How many rounds have you fired and do you plan to fire per year?

Have you received any formal marksmanship training?

A $3,000 1/4 moa rifle will not make the average person any better as a shooter than giving them a Porsche will make them a great driver.

Why do you need a removable barrel? Can you not fit a regular one into whatever you need to?

What is your justification for engaging a target at 1500 yds.?

Not sure you really have to engage game that would require more than a .30-'06 offers.

I would avoid the entire wannabe sniper issue.

A good hunting rifle will not be an optimal defense or survival rifle, and vice versa. It should beat a sharp stick though, if you know how to use it.

IMHO, I do not think you have refined your requirement adequately to allow an informed response.

TR

I think I pretty much know every one in Utah who has killed an elk beyond 1000 yards. Everyone is a small group of three people. Two were shooting a gun owned by a guy named Bawden and it was a 338 Thunder and the other guy was shooting a 7 Dakota.

Everything TR said I agree with.

I have several extreme range rifles that have killed quite a few animals beyond 800 yards. I compete regularly in 1K f-class. If what you really wish to do is to just hunt at long range then you should participate in the forum that is run just for that kind of thing. You should also have the shooting skills to compete in long range events

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/

I would just add that some people believe that being able to shoot accurately at 1000 yards will help them kill more animals. My own opinion is that if you cannot regularly kill animals under 100 yards then you do not know enough about animal behavior to do much good at long range.


If you want to build a switch barrel rifle all you will really need in the way of tools to change barrels is an action wrench and a headspace gauge for each chamber. First thing to do is to get an accurate action and that could be one such as the Stiller Predatpr

http://www.viperactions.com/

or Surgeon

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/actions/

or anyone of several others including a accurized Rem 700.

Second thing is to use a gunsmith who knows how to build such rifles.



Finally, to repeat what TR said- stay away from the the wannabe systems. Here are just a few stories to back up what you have been told about practice and long range rifles

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ad.php?t=21790

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ad.php?t=21854


I have already been to Utah elk hunting this year with my bow and when I finish typing this I am going up to the kitchen and warm me up some leftover elk shoulder roast. :D

Great
 

Alright,
Now we are getting to the serious stuff. Like I stated in my OP, this realm of shooting I am totally un-educated in, that is why I asked. Now I have a list of questions to answer, I did not even think about some of the issues in the questions, Thanks Reaper for getting me to think outside of the box on this.

As far as hunting or precision rifles, not ever shot for a group. I killed an antelope many years ago with AK variant. Range: approxiamtely 100 yds, two shots, First shot broke it's spine, second shot through the heart.
The above was done with iron sights, no optics.
Engagement: mainly animals but if needed two legged creatures also.
Hunting: mainly deer and elk.
Total rounds: Rifle precision, not enough; maybe 100 if that. That is why I stated I am new to this.
Once I find a platform that is the initial, plan on shooting bi-weekly.
Only formal training involves pistols, I am a trainer in that discipline. No other formal besides my training in LE on the shotgun and patrol rifle.
I realize that a high dollar rifle does not make a shooter, just was wondering what your guys opinion was of the system and the fact that it has a quick change barrel and what effect that has on accuracy. That thing is WAY out of my price range anyways. My wife would kill me.
Again, not necessarily wanting a removable barrel, see previous.
I don't necessarily want to engage at 1500 yds.. I believe if you can't get closer than that then you should not be hunting. But, on the other hand would not mind having the ability, better to have and not need than need and not have.
That is fine with me on the 30'06 just what I was looking for, recommendations.
I think maybe I worded my relpy in such a way that I gave the impression of that sniper thing. I am past the young age of wanna be and just want to be prepared and learn something new for me. If I wanted to be a sniper, I would have joined the armed forces some 26 years ago and done that. Instead I went into LE, followed my fathers footsteps I guess and did what I did.
Again, probably did not clarify that I have a self-defense option already taken care of in the carbine area. Looking for hunting or precision rifle now, hence my OP.
Hopefully that will help, I have been getting good ideas from people already reference this.
Buffalobob please PM me reference this, maybe I have been told wrong. Wow, someone lied to me. LOL.
Again Buffalobob, not wanting to build it, was just asking about the accuracy potential of such a creature.
Like I stated in my second post, leaning heavily toward the Rem 700 action unless there is something better that would be recommended.
Hollis, yes already checked there, and I am set up through Brownells to buy wholesale too. Found out recently Rem is no longer making the part.
Justinmd, you mentioned that you would take the T3 over the Rem, so would you take the T3 over the Sako too, or would that be a step down?
Enquiring minds want to know. Thanks guys, sorry for the confusion.

Just spoke with my gunsmith (I love saying that - makes me sound affluent; just wish I could afford to do most of what he recommends) and he said various unflattering things about your lack of experience/knowlege. Bottom line - take your Rem 721 to a competent gunsmith and let him work it over. It's compatible with most Rem 700 parts and perfectly adequate for your needs. Trigger, bedding, maybe recrown the existing barrel, and decent optics. Remember - you said survival - that means only taking high percentage shots. All you need is MOA accuracy and optics adequate for dawn/dusk to +/- 500 yds MAX. .270 is a perfectly acceptable cartridge for your purposes. If you want to rebarrel into a 30-06 you can take any North American game at reasonable range. If you handload, it gets even better. Save the Manners/McMillan stocks, Lilja barrels, Jewel triggers, and NightForce optics for after you win the lottery.

Thanks
 

Peregrino,

I am not interested in getting into a flame with anyone here. Maybe I am reading too much into your post.
Anyways, no you can no longer buy a Rem 721 extractor, nor does Rem make them anymore, Remington gunsmiths confirmed that and in Brownells Gunsmith Kinks, #4 page 342, it says that, " Rem 721/722 extractors are no longer available." There are several factors that I have looked at that have convinced me that I am not going to mess around with the extractor on this rifle. First and foremost is that without putting out alot of money for a mod to fix it or putting in a sub-standard, but workable part; is just not what I am willing to do with my late father's gun that was handed down to me.
The reason I am looking for another rifle is that I want to keep this Rem 721 as original when my dad gave it to me for a family keepsake.
No where in any of my posts have I alluded to that I knew what I was doing. Just asking questions and wanting to know information about precision rifles. I never claimed to be a gunsmith or anything of the sort. I play around doing some of it but ONLY on my rifles, my little hobby. I believe if you can't fix it you should not be using it. I have built both of my AR's and they are great little rifles that shoot just fine. I am sure they out-shoot me. Am I a gunsmith NO, just like fixing/building MY OWN rifles.
I am not looking to do any mods to this rifle at all, hence my OP and asking questions about precision rifles.
Thank you for your time and information Peregrino and most of all, Thank you for your service.

That is archery range, not rifle range.


The most recent world record at 1K for a 10 shot group was set at Williamsport Pa. using a 300 WSM and Berger 210s. Group size was under 3 inches. That is only relevant to say that the 300 WSM is an accurate cartridge that competes favorable with the 300 Win Mag. Both cartridges have reasonable throat life. Two of the three people I know who have killed elk at ranges past 2K used to compete at Williamsport.

Bawden, before he designed his 338, used a 300 Win Mag and Nosler 180 ABs to kill two or three elk at ranges beyond 800 yards.

I do not have any personal experience with either cartridge but I know Bawden and most of his work was done with witnesses present so there is not much doubt about whether he actually did the things he said.

I will just remind you that you are on a forum dedicated to military skills and that is not the same as hunting skills. A military chamber in a rifle is a lot different than a specialized long range hunting rifle. All of my chambers are tight but not to the extent of needing to neck turn. Basically what I specify is minimum SAAMI. The throat is where one must make decisions and then live with the results. If one is going to shoot long high sectional density VLDs then the throat is cut so that the bullet is not seated down into the case body occupying space that is needed for powder. This then means the rifle may not shoot shorter bullets very well nor factory cartridges unless you can find ones that jump. It also may cause you grief in that the bullet will not longer fit into your magazine and then you may need to get specialized bottom metal. One way to get around this is to use a long action for a short action cartridge.

There is no disadvantage to using a single shot action for a long range rifle being as travel time is going to be long and if you miss there is a need to stop and think about what you did wrong so you are seldom in a hurry to make a second shot.

Loading manuals and factory ammo are designed for factory type rifles. Most of us who use 28-34 inch barrels for hunting use really slow powders which provide for very good burn in the long barrels and give us extra velocity.

None of this is to say a person cannot use a commercially available sporter weight rifle to kill elk at 1K but the odds of doing so get magnified. Lots of people kill elk out to 600 yards but that is where the average person will not practice nor spend the money for quality optics and quality parts so very few will ever make it beyond that point. For example, my spotting scope costs about $1K, my binoculars cost over $1K, my rangefinder costs right at $1K. So I'm into the sport for $3K and haven't even talked about the rifle.

I'm glad BuffaloBob isn't shooting at me.

A survival and hunting rifle?

How about a nice Springfield Armory M1A with a decent scope?

Ok, done
 

I think I can put this to rest now. I am pretty sure I am going to go with a Rem 700 in 30'06. Price is right and I can put as much money into as I need to make it what I think will fill the gap. Plus, as The Reaper put it, can get into handloading and design different rounds for different purposes. I think that fits right in with your post mojaveman, simple is good.
Are you down in my old stomping ground or somewhere else in the southwest?

Thanks for everyone's input. We're good to go.

Brownells sells new parts. I posted a site Numrichs, they are the largest supplier of used part. They do have a extractor for a Rem 721 in stock, it is for a 300 Win mag. They may eventually get one in for a 270. Also have you tried to google for that part? There are other used parts dealers out there.

Some gunsmiths can make obsolete parts.

A secret to saving money. When you buy a fire arms, shoot it, see how it shoots before messing with it. Assumption is; you know how to shoot.

You can check the trigger, 3.5 pounds with a crisp pull is great. Lesser pull is not necessary better. It can be more dangerous.

Crown, IMHO, is very important to accuracy.

Bedding, is more for target rifles, it does improve accuracy but not that much.

Hunting accuracy is not as tight as target (unless you are Buffalo Bob).

Generally hand loads will group better than factory, assuming you know how to reload. Custom building loads for a specific rifle takes time and skill.

On Caliber, 30-06 is a great round there are many great rounds out there. I would look at a 300 Win Mag, it's difference in hitting power is greater than a 30-06 is from a 270. Any way, depends on what you are hunting, also depends on you.

Comments embedded in your quote.

If it is not a problem, I would be interested to find out what your final choice is and what the range report is.

I've done quite a bit of reading concerning the Sako TRG, and it's looks like a great rifle. That said don't you think I'd look a little funny hunting elk in Montana with it? :)

My brother recently purchased the T3 in .300 Win Mag. I like the action and it shoots much better than I can, which is not saying a lot. I have been looking at the T3, the Remington 700 and also the X-Bolt to replace a model 70 I have had some problems with. I am also trying to determine whether to go with a 30-06 which the model 70 is, or to move to the .300 or .300 WSM. This thread has been very insightful and I look forward to more info from guys with a lot more time behind the trigger than I will ever have. Thanks.

Consider a new Douglas XX Premium Air Gauged barrel for your Model 70 from these people:
http://www.itdcustomgun.com/index.html
Good work, at a reasonable price.

PM'd

A couple of points need to be made when discussing precision rifles. Purchasing such an instrument is like purchasing a Lamborghini or Formula One race car. If you cannot push them to their limits why purchase them in the first place? Some will just because they are some of the finest machines on the market and they have the means to make the purchase, but again, they are not trained to drive them and can/will only do so on public streets.

Same can be said for precision rifles, if you cannot shoot a sub minute of angle, every time, at 100m, 200m & 300m then you need not purchase such a high end instrument. What you need is to take that same money and attend a marksmanship class. Allow me to reiterate what I've said before, 99.99% of people cannot outshoot off the shelf rifles/pistols. These same individuals routinely purchase high end rifles and pistols thinking they will just shoot better....... brilliant idea.

Marksmanship is like learning to golf, you don't become good without putting in the weeks, months & years of training and practice. And you don't become great without a few years of experience.

As Peregrino mentioned, "survival is about the "high percentage" shot" that is a shot that you can make each and every time. If you must move to a comfortable distance to do so, so be it. This is why snipers/hunters stalk their targets, to identify and to make a high percentage shot. Unlike hunters military snipers usually work in pairs the reason is the same, to achieve that high percentage shot. I've always said that after a certain distance the kill is not the snipers but the spotters. The sniper is merely imputing the spotters data and pulling the trigger.

Consistency is the name of the game. Ever watch a "pro" golfer address the ball? A great long range shooter does the same thing each and every time. The steady position, grip, stock weld, sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, non-firing elbow, all of this deals with internal ballistics; before the bullet is launched. Then there's external ballistics, everything that impacts on that same bullet after it's launched, bullet coefficient, wind, humidity, air density, temperature, angle to target, altitude etc. Then there are terminal ballistics , what happens when that bullet strikes an object.

My point, you don't need that fancy rifle if you cannot drive it/push it to its limits. If you understand everything I just posted above, great you have a good general understanding of marksmanship whether you can employ all that was stated above is altogether another matter.

This is the "rifle" that set the record of 3.04" at 1000 yds. A water cooled Kreiger barrel chambered for 300 Ackley Improved.
How much do you think this machine cost?

Buffalobob: How'd you like to carry this little honey into the woods for a long shot?

Excellent
 

I really liked what The Reaper had to say. I think that is sound principle. I have decided on the Rem 700 in 30'06. I might put a synthetic stock, for durability and longevity and still do not know what type of optic to go with, more research.
My plan is to get the rifle and shoot, shoot and shoot some more to learn the rifle. Once I get it down a bit, then I am going to take a class. I think going this route the rifle will out-shoot me for some time. Once I get that far, we can talk about how to make more rifle with what I have. Any ideas on a good optic that is weather-resistant and will be good for the platform that I have decided on. Not looking to break the bank but I do know you get what you paid for, so quality, dependability and durability is paramount. I can upgrade later when I get that far.
My whole intent in starting this thread was to just find a good basic platform that any newbie, such as myself; could get and start working with to become proficient with. With all the info that has come in, it has helped me decide and to watch myself not get caught up in the, getting more rifle than I can handle syndrome. That is exactly why I posted it here, I know there are hunting forums out there, but even they have the arm chair hunters with their opinions and false ideas.
May be a little late in life to start doing this but hey what the heck, you only live once.
Thanks guys.

As usual when discussing marksmanship records it's relatively easy to find out that your record is yesterday's news. Check this one out.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-with-300-wsm/

Interesting:

30-06? Be prepared to break the bank, abuse yourself for no reason, and spend far more time to become proficient.

The 30-06 became obsolete when the .308 came out. The .308 became obsolete when the .260 Remington came out.

Take a look at the .260. Half the recoil, better selection of bullets for all purposes, far better external ballistics capabilities and I believe better terminal ballistics capabilities -- provided you use the right bullet. Mostly, half the recoil and better exterior ballistics than the 0-6 or .308.

Gene

Interesting about going to a smaller caliber.

Do you have any strong opinions on the .243 Winchester?

Hey Gene, how come I never heard of the .260???

Gene - He said "survival" not Creedmor! :p Lot more meat on an elk than an antelope and you don't have to be so picky about shot placement with a .30. :munchin

TS - Depending on what you want to do you might want to educate yourself. .260 is a really nice round for a lot of reasons. (Though that changes from day to day too. Norm Crawford has been using 6.5x284 - very similar to the .260 - for a while and even he's starting to experiment in the 7mm range.) I'm having a .260 upper built for my DPMS lower. I expect it to be a competitive 1000 yd. gas gun. I'm still going to stick with the .30s for "survival", especially after seeing that 2.815″ record at 1000 yards with a 300 WSM. Not bad for a 10 shot group.

TS:

Not sure except that you most likely stay more focused on military or LEA requirements.

A .260 is basically a .308 necked down to 6.5mm. Just another modification of what is basically an extremely fine cartridge design.

Half the recoil, much better exterior ballistics than the .308 or 06, just as wide a range of bullets as found with the .30 calibers, same barrel life. They are pretty forgiving in terms of loads too and offer great accuracy potential without much if any effort in terms of loading. Overall a good efficient combination of case capacity and bullet diameter.

Guys use it for hunting medium and large game as well as competitive purposes.

Easy to make the brass by necking up .243 brass. Or you can just buy the brass. Nothing really new about the cartridge so companies make factory loads just as readily as you find for the .308.

Gene

PG:

Roger but you have to hit the animal to kill it. I imagine there won't be too much practice given a seven pound 30-06 and that performance will suffer as a result of the beating the fellow will take. Also, the 30-06 is a waste of cartridge length. Good for the days when you had to put that much powder into a case to get some speed but not today with the modern powders.

Gene

Dam it has been fun watching this one. :munchin :D