ROTC Summer training opportunities
 

Gents,

I wanted to get some opinions on summer training opportunities. I won't be going to LDAC until next summer so I have some pretty interesting opportunities this summer but I wanted to see what you gentlemen think in terms of how what I try for will help me and also if there are any ideas I haven't run across yet.

First of all I really wanted to do the JFKSWS PL program but as I was in Egypt this past semester I apparently missed the deadlines for application. I was kinda bummed about that cause I would have loved getting to be a G. I think I might still get a chance to do it next year as LDAC is only a month long (although you gents obviously know a lot more about it than I do so maybe I am just wishing in one hand and...in the other).

So this summer I am gonna try to knock out Airborne School. But I also might have another interesting interning opportunity to work at the Direct Action Resources Center. This is still in the baby stages of "it might happen" but I did want to find out if you gents think this would be of benefit to me to work at this private facility (as I understand it one of the Owners is a QP from 20th Group) and forego other military training opportunities (i.e. Air Assault, Mountain Warfare, Northern Warfare). From what I hear if this facility decides to use me this summer I will be exposed to some good training, will make me work hard, and it will give me a taste of some of the things I can expect as I continue down the road to 18A (maybe not as good as JFKSWS PL program but I don't have enough exposure to make that call which is why I am asking here) which is my main long term goal.

Do you gents recommend this over other summer training opportunities you can think of?
and
Are there any other options I am not thinking of that I should be?

Thanks for any help and I hope I posted this in the right place. As always just trying to increase my SA.

Sgt. Atilla

Go to Ranger School.

Being a G can be fun, but will not be particularly helpful.

TR

TR,

It was my understanding that this option is not open to me until after I got to IOBC. I know that some of the USMA cadets are allowed to go but as far as I know I am not allowed to attend Ranger school at this point unless someone is misinforming me... Believe me sir I would love to be corrected, if you know something I don't.

Thanks,

Sgt. Atilla

IMO...take the BAC option...and be prepared to sweat.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Having done both BAC and the VTARNG Mountain Warfare School as a cadet, I'd recommend going either the MWS route or see about getting a Sapper School slot.

MWS is (or at least was...its been a while) a very professionally run school teaching an interesting subject--the military application of rock climbing and alpine operations. You'll also set yourself up to get through the lower mountaineering portion of Ranger School fairly easily.

Short of attending Ranger School, the Sapper Course may be the closest you'll get to working small unit tactics in a demanding environment as a cadet. It would serve as a decent taste of what to expect at RS (patrolling, OPORDS, SUT, etc.), plus you get to do target analysis and make things go boom. Oh yeah, you also might earn the coveted Sapper Tab. :rolleyes:

If you end up commissioning infantry, you'll get a BAC slot either before or after IOBC, so you might as well try to broaden your training now while you have some unique options (and some choice) available.

BTW, USMA cadets haven't been able to attend Ranger School since 1991.

Formal military training
 

Basic Airborne Course. You will be in the Army system, getting an Army qualification, and be treated like any other Soldier.

Cadet Troop Leadership Training, if available. Better than nothing.

Go to Annual Training with an Army Guard unit. You're in Austin, you can research what's available at the AG Headquarters at Camp Mabry (there's a 19th Group det or company headquarters, a Long Range Surveillance det, and a Rigger platoon on Mabry).

If you can afford the gas, shoot the Interservice Rifle Championships and go to the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio for the Small Arms Firing School and the M16 EIC Match. If you're good and/or lucky you may qualify for an Excellence-in-Competition Badge. If for no other reason you can strap-hang around the NCOs (Active, Guard, and Reserve) and get some trigger time. You can live in the barracks for cheap and you may be able to get a loaner rifle (at least while you're at the matches).

At the very least go to summer school and knock out some more credits (graduate with your class instead of with your buds).

I don't know if the Sapper course is an option either, I would love to go to Sapper school. To train with the units over at Mabry I am under the impression that I have to be SMP. I do want to get BAC out of the way so I have one less thing to worry about after IOBC on the way to Ranger School.

What I am gathering is that you gents are subtly recommending against DARC?

I found a website for them here: http://www.darc1.com/
maybe someone can PM me and give me a straight up opinion?

I am open to trying to do MWS or Northern Warfare School. Not so keen on CTLT because I used to be a Marine SGT, a squad leader and a VC, and I did those things in combat. I am not trying to say I am too good as I know the name of the game for me right now is being humble (trust me some of these young studs have already run me into the dirt, difference is I have already learned how not to quit) but I am sure you gents can understand that I want to avoid as much Mickey Mouse stuff as possible.

I am going to check into the Sapper course to see if its the sort of thing that isn't offered unless asked about. Problem may be that technically I am still considered and MSII. I just started AROTC (three weeks ago) and I am finishing my Junior year this semester. As it is I have agreed to "extend" for another semester for the scholarship and for branch selection purposes (get as many points as I can). So instead of graduating Spring of 10 I'll be graduating Fall of 10. Next year I am doubling up my MSIII and MSIV classes in the Spring to make this happen and in the process getting a chance to squeeze in a third major. That all said because I am in some kind of weird "OFP" (which I am extremely grateful for being allowed to do) I may not be eligible to do something like Sapper this summer cause I am still an MSII, even though next year I'll be an MSIV.

Honestly if all I get to do is got to BAC I'll be a happy guy but I just want to maximize my possibilities and potential because I am hungry gents as I hope I get to prove to you someday on your ground. I have decided what I am doing with my life and it reaffirms to me what I knew when I was enlisted. I am a warrior and I will spend all my time trying to become the best one I can be. The profession of arms is where I belong and realizing that is making me a bit exuberant I know but I think that is a good thing if harnessed. Thanks for the help thus far and anymore input as always i greatly appreciated.

Sgt. Atilla

I found out today that Sapper is a possibility so now my question is should I do this DARC thing or the Sapper course?

What do you expect to get from DARC that would be of benefit to you after commissioning?

TR

TR sir,
I suppose I thought I could get some good small unit training. Lots of trigger time, lots of Direct Action training in urban environs. I know that this won't have a lot to do with being an Infantry PL but I think that since I can't do the JFKSWS PL thing thing this summer I wanted to find another way to work around some QP's and maybe learn a thing or two from them. I guess that is why I started the thread. To see if those who know could tell me if this place is legit and if I would get anything at all out of it. I have an ingrained distrust for contractors and as high speed as it seems I worry about being taught to do things in a different way than I should do them. Guys who went before said it was really great but none of them were priors or AD, there only experience has only ever been the cadet world so I don't know if I can trust that. I would love to go to DARC if it is worthwhile, and I would also love to go to the Sapper course as long as it doesn't mean I have to branch ENG.

BAC = $ when you get a chance to go to Ranger School and an ASI for your 'budding' career. The proverbial 'pot' is a constant; whether you use it or not is up to you...use it or get the hell off so someone else can utilize it.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

At the rate we're going...
 

With this economic situation presently upon us...I'd jump on anything too pay the bills.:eek:

Stay safe.

Get a badge. Nobody likes a FOB (Fresh Off the Boat) "Slick Shirt" LT.
Show up at your unit wearing a shirt that talks for you. Demonstrate (without having to open your mouth) that you "cared enough to get the very best" training you could. Frankly, nobody is really going to care much about any "Big Whoop" stuff you got somewhere else. And when you start talking about it it won't come across the way you would like it to or even the way you would mean it.
You'll get all the experience you need when your NCO's think you need it and you'll get the experience they think you need. Your Commanders, Big Brother Branch, and Mother Army will watch out for your other training and "experience". Don't forget about your peers either. No one like the guy who "cut the line".
WPPA aside, The West Point experience DOES come to an end at commissioning. The day after, you are "just" a 2LT. (You will be viewed the same as:eek: ROTC :eek:. Day one of your new "2LT Reality" is the OCS guys have the advantage.
Lastly, pace yourself, 20 years is a loooong time;)

The time at DARC would be fun... but so would hanging out on the beach. So the question is what will benefit you the most in your progression to 18A? I got to do some work at T.E.E.S. before joining the Army. I promise you, every instructor/cadre could give a rat's-ass if you've been to some "high speed school" unless it's in the ATRRS listing. If anything it will put a bulls-eye on you as you'll be considered the guy who thinks he knows what he's talking about. There are plenty of "wanna-be's" that attend all sorts of good training.

At DARC you'll probably never be faced with something that may weed you out. You'll probably not PT every morning unless it's on your own. You'll not be required to do something that "really" sucks. There will be no gut-check. It's as hard or as easy as you want it to be. Rich (and schools such as his) are in the business to make money. It's a different world than most army schools.

That said- you show up at a unit with a Ranger tab - everyone knows there is some level of difficulty that you've taken on and passed. You'll learn things the "Army" way and that's what you'll need in IOBC, and many of the Phases of the Q-course. Sapper will give you more knowledge that is useful to the Q-Course than DARC. Airborne - at least you won't be a leg.. :cool:

Again, the time at DARC would be fun but it will do little to nothing to help you one your way to 18A.

I have a couple of buddies go to the airborne.... not so much ranger or sapper although I also wish to prove you wrong; but as stated I believe that is an impossibility right now.

This summer taking credits and traveling to Sur Americana to do field school research.

Good luck on sapper summer or w/e you choose Atilla.

My recommendation would be to go to any Army School you can get into, except Airborne. The year I worked in Cadet Command, not a single LT that left our school that wanted to go to BAC failed to get a slot, either before BOLC, after enroute to OBC, after, enroute to their first duty assignment, etc. No one got an Air Assault slot once they left school unless they went to Campbell, or a Sapper Course unless they were Engineers, etc.

First gentlemen let me thank you for all of the amazing advice I have been receiving. As you all have helped me to evaluate the problem with effective and wise counsel. I think that per the advice I have received from many of you I will be trying as hard as I can to get either Sapper school or MWS. As you gents are aware that is easy for me to say so I will let you all know when I know for sure whether I will be lucky enough to attend anything.

In another bit of fortuitous news. Today while I was engaging in a Crossfit workout with the Major in charge of my military science course there was a new gentleman working out with us. He was motivating me while I was doing the prescribed deadlifts. Didn't ask who he was as I know things like that are always revealed with time. Later on in the day I saw him in the building again in his ACU's. Turns out this gentleman is our new XO and one of the first things I noticed was a blue arrowhead with three lighting bolts and a knife on it on his right shoulder. I thought could I really be this lucky to have an 18A QP as our new XO and so I glanced at the other shoulder and saw the expected progression of tabs. So now not only do I have all you fine gentlemen to help mentor me on my quest but quite literally one of my direct mentors has accomplished the things I am hoping to. How lucky can one guy be. Now I will sit back and wait for the opportunity to present itself for me to non-intrusively pick this man's brain as I am trying to pick all of yours. That is unless he is a member of this forum in which case I will feel embarrassed for talking about it in such a theatrical manner. Wanted to share my luck though. Thanks gents.

MAN! some kids just get all the toys before Christmas don't they? :eek:


going to do some more PT. :lifter

A spade?:confused:

I know that it is supposed to be an arrowhead. I was just trying to paint the picture of my first quick glance of the patch (It does kind of look like a spade). I apologize and will edit my post to fix the error and will push for my rookie mistake.

Ok I'll flash my FOG lights. What unit sports a "blue arrowhead with three lighting bolts and a knife"?

Atilla, there is a reason I highlighted some of your prose in brown and not purple. Dial it back a tad, please. Or we may have to hold our Rolexs above our heads . . . its probably too late to save the Danners.
20 years is a looooong time, pace yourself.

Look on the sleeve of your greens, FOG.

TR

I'm in the same boat trying to figure out what to do with my summer '09 training before LDAC next summer.

Right now I'm leaning towards Air Assault because it's supposed to be more challenging and informative than Airborne. Also, if I'm unable to fit in Airborne next summer after LDAC, supposedly they hand Airborne slots out like candy after commissioning. Down the road there will be more opportunities for Airborne, but Air Assault might be elusive in the future.

If we get an option for Sapper school, I'd love to do that, but it doesn't seem like that's in the cards.

Dozer 523, roger I get ahead of myself sometimes. I am concerned though I was under the impression that rolexes were issued upon graduation from Q course. If there are no rolexes I am not sure I am on board anymore. :D

Sorry. But "blue spade / arrowhead with three lighting bolts and a knife" had to be the oddest description of the SF Shoulder Sleeve Insignia I've ever read. It's not blue. It's Teal Blue. Its not a spade or a shovel, It's an Arrowhead. It's not a knife it's a Fighting Knife. But, they are Lightning Bolts. Go to this site
http://www.groups.sfahq.com/sf_heral...ch_heraldy.htm Study it Atilla! There will be a test.
And why is this Shoulder Sleeve Insignia (don't ever call it a "patch") worn on a set of ACU's, not subdued?

And if you are in this for the watch . . .

Can't even recognize the old "electric butter knife" SSI anymore when you hear one described? Better take your Ginko! :p

Richard's $.02

Will recite the aspects of the SF SSI as I push. :lifter

Someone needs a cup or two of camomile. ;)

Probably. . .
It has been an interesting day, in a Chinese sort of way. Atilla . . . quit trying to make me like you.

All due respect is it working or do I need to withdraw and attack from a different direction?

update
 

Gents,

I just wanted to step out of the shadows to give an update. It looks like I will either be going to BAC or Air Assault this summer. This mostly has to do with the fact that our program here at UT is a small one and we don't get many slots or opportunities for more specialized schools. I will be trying in every way I can to go to Air Assault school as I have been informed that Airborne is handed out like candy after BOLC. I may not have a choice though and will be happy to do whatever training I may get this summer. At this point it is a wait and see game. I decided against the DARC option and instead will be taking more Arabic this summer. Next summer will be LDAC and hopefully things will work out in a way that I can apply for the JFKSWS internship and come be a G at Sage that summer as well. Just wanted to update you gents and thank you for your information and guidance.

Sgt. Atilla

Being a G at Robin Sage will in no real way benefit you in your Army career.

If you want to go play in the woods, fine, just don't count on it to get you anywhere or anything.

TR

Atilla,

I and the other QP appreciate your enthusiasm and can-do attitude, but chill out a little. If your sole focus right now is being an 18A, then you're short changing your first platoon and branch, whether it be infantry or even support. Take all the advice you get here to be the best cadet, LT, CPT, etc. in whatever unit you go to. I caveat that by saying that you are on the right track with wanting to professionally develop/improve yourself.

From my experience, the guys who were the loudest and most "motivated" during IOBC were seen as the know-it-all/show-offs. Usually it was the down to earth, competent 2LT's who were seen as the true leaders. I'm not categorizing you in either, as I don't know you enough, but that should be food for thoughts.

As for schools, get whatever schools you can get because as an officer, the opportunity for you to go to school will be limited. I was fortunate enough to go to BAC and Sapper Leader Course as a cadet but after that, my military schooling basically ended. The only schools offered were the "required" schools for an Infantry PL (IOBC, Ranger, eventually Jumpmaster).

Just my 2 cents as an 18A

TR,

Sir I understand that being a G will in no way give me a leg up I was just interested because it seemed like a great way to get some further training in how to think outside the box. Whether or not it helps me on paper I know it would help me to be a better leader.

Sleepyhead,

Sir I understand what you are saying about being about it and not seeing about it. "Speak softly and carry a big stick". I do know I have a lot to do before 18A is on my immediate list of shit to worry about. I don't want any of you gentlemen to misunderstand me. My main focus right now is doing my best in ROTC and to stack the deck in my favor through hard work to get the branch I want (Infantry) and to learn as much as I can from the excellent cadre I have to make the transition from good NCO to good PL. The reason my 18A ambitions are so evident in my posts here is that it deals directly with you gentlemen and that this is where I know I can go to increase my SA on my long range goal which I like to keep good and current intel on so that when the time does come for me to fire for effect I am as educated and properly armed/equipped as I can be. On the school issue, at this point as I mentioned I'll take what I can get and be happy for it. At the end of the day cool schools are not the point, the point for me is to be ready and able to take men to combat and stack the deck in their favor by setting them up for success, leading them competently, and doing everything I can to make sure that they all come home even if that means giving up my life for theirs. 18A is my secondary goal, with the primary being striving to be the best officer I can be in whatever task I am assigned by the Army. Hopefully if I do that the rest will take care of itself and I will get a chance to join you gents and take up the banner of a very distinguished and hallowed group of professionals.

As always thank you gents for your guidance.

Sgt. Atilla

I tend to stay out of this section...
 

... since I'm not an 18A, but I thought the CDTs that are considering MWS as an option should know a few things:

- MWS has recently changed from a 2 phase (2 weeks each) course to a 1 phase (2 weeks total course). It teaches some new tactical topics like high angle shooting at the expense of some of the more technical stuff. (If you want technical, PM me about the Assault Climber Course :lifter)

WHICH MEANS: The "E" ASI is now given after completing the single phase. In the past, if a cadet went to the MWS after LDAC or whatever it's called now, they would leave with a certificate but no qualification and maybe a desire to try and get back for the other phase. The single phase now qualifies one as a "Military Mountaineer". Do I necessarily agree with that? Different topic.

Airborne and Ranger School are gimmes if you commission Infantry.

MWS provides just one more piece of info for your kit bag that a handful of guys have the opportunity to get on active duty (exceptions being SF and 5th RTB).

My $.02.

Enjoy your summer, regardless of what training is available to you. Make use of every available training opportunity presented to you, b/c your PL time is best spent with your guys, not TDY, IMHO.

Atilla,

Good luck where ever you end up this summer.

Atilla,

I suggest you focus on school and PT right now. If you have had the OML class, you will see that GPA and PT are the two things that will help you the most during the rotc assessment. Airborne and AA also give *some* points. I have heard that it also helps if you are a 11b right now. If you want Infantry... study, do PT. Dont worry about internships and whatnot b/c they arent going to get you too much.

This is your last year and a half or so of school. Take advantage of it. Do well in school, PT, and LDAC. everything else will happen.

I appreciate the advice but I am not so sure you are qualified to give it since it looks like we are in the same boat. Im am well aware of what will and will not help me in assessions, and on that point as far as I know schools such as as BAS and AA don't offer any points. GPA is worth 40% (I have a 3.6) and as far as PT goes I am good. I posted the question about training opportunity because I have the other situation in hand and would like to get some good training this summer. Not trying to get testy just don't like being talked down to by someone who seems to be a peer.

I suggest growing some thicker skin if you plan on going SF...a team would eat you alive right now...best of luck with your decisions...it appears you are setting yourself up well, but don't get to far ahead of yourself...

Been in your shoes.
 

Attila,

I am a current 18A DET CDR in GRP and went through the ROTC stuff that you are going through. I knew when I graduated high school I wanted to be an SF Officer. I enrolled in ROTC and focused my studies in areas I thought would prepare me. I was a Criminal Justice Major with a Psych and Spanish minor. That helped alot. I developed what I called my 10 year plan. Where I wanted to be in 10 years to help me achieve my goal. That included starting out as an Infantry officer in the 82nd Airborne. I did Airborne and Air Assault as a Cadet and it was beneficial only because it allowed me to get to my unit faster and get more time being a leader of troops. Did the Mortar Leader Course and Ranger after IOBC and that set me up for success since after my Rifle PL time I moved to the Mortar Platoon. I have to tell you this. The time you spend as an INF PL is what will shape you for years to come. You will learn the importance of your PSG and the rest of the NCO's and you will learn about putting your men before yourself. You will also develop the thick skin that everyone talks about. Plus, the Big Army does stuff that SF may not do as well. The Conventional Army is a great place to learn the ropes as an Officer, despite any type of prior service as an NCO. I would not have been prepared to do my job if it wasn't for those early years in Division.

Regarding the debate around your decisions for what schools, training to go to I will offer this up. I did CTLT as a Cadet with an Aviation unit at Bragg where I worked with an Apache unit during Aerial Gunnery. I didn't think it would apply to what I wanted to do but on my last rotation we executed air assaults constantly and without the knowledge I gained from that month with an Aviation unit I would have been playing catch up the whole time. Regardless of what you get to go and do, You will learn something that will benefit you down the road. The key is to take whatever you can get and put it in your kit bag.

Become as well-rounded as you can and you will do just fine.

Good luck.