Pro-Hamas Demonstration in Florida
 

The link is to video of a pro-Hamas demonstration in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. The clip is unedited and about 9 minutes long. Demonstrators are calling for a humanitarian solution to the conflict in Gaza; If you consider 'nuking' Israel and putting all Jews in a big oven humanitarian.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024156.php

Whoever said this wasn't a religious war was an idiot. It is all about worldviews and religious zealotry.

If you haven't already seen the documentary "Islam: What the West Needs to Know", I recommend you set aside an hour and half and view the video.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...highlight=west

The loony left was out in force in San Francisco yesterday, too…

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&sn=011&sc=845

I am curious why there were no anti-Palestine protests when they were lobbing rockets into Isreal… :rolleyes:

God I hate this state, don’t think I’ll ever get the wife to move though. That’s what I get for marrying a California girl… :o

I do want to clarify that the war I refer to above is the global war we are currently engaged in with Islamic fundamentalism.

However, with regard to the Israeli/Palestinian issue in particular, and however offensive these folks are in the video, there are valid issues to deal with on both sides of the equation. Israel needs complete security for its citizens and national interests, and the Palestinians need autonomy and must be dealt with in humanitarian ways. (I am NOT referring to the terrorist entity Hamas). It is interesting to note that one of the key factors in President Bush's argument in the spin-up to the war in Iraq was Saddam Hussein's failure to comply with certain UN resolutions, while, by far, the nation with the most egregious and numerous UN violations has been Israel.

Interesting clip.

First amendment at work. Not suprised to see this. Hamas and Israel are at war, have been for a long time. I kept looking for the "juicy" sign with no luck.

Thanks SF-TX.


RF 1

Enlighten us. How is Israel the most egregious UN violator?

It is Israel's responsibility to give the Palestinians autonomy? Why not Jordan? Syria? Egypt? Saudi Arabia?Iran?Etc.?

What would you propose as a 'humanitarian' solution?

The "Death To All Juice" sign was seen at a rally in NYC, not Florida. It wouldn't have been surprising to see a similar sign in Florida, though.

Pro-Hamas Demonstration in Florida
 

You got coordinates? I might be able to swing a B-2 strike with JDAMS.;)

Team Sergeant

Great questions – I don’t have all the answers. Evidently, no one does, otherwise we wouldn’t be dealing with this powder keg in 2009. It is the central issue as far as Muslims and the Middle East is concerned. (As you know, only about 25% of Muslims are located in the ME). If we want any sort of lasting peace, this problem has to be solved. We have no alternative. In fact, I believe this was the key factor in our taking our eye off the ball in Afghanistan, leading to our 2003 war in Iraq (I can expound later if you’d like).

Let me start by saying that I am a strong supporter of Israel’s sovereignty – her right to exist in peace and autonomy, and I firmly support her right to vigorously defend herself against any and all threats.

I have lost patience with the Palestinians and have found myself wishing the Israelis would bomb the hell out of them at various points in the past few years.

That being said, for the Israeli government to decry terrorism is somewhat hypocritical as several of Israel’s PMs have actively participated in terroristic activity in their younger days for the sake of political activism (Begin, Shamir, Sharon, Stern Gang, etc…). In other words, terror and hate were bred into both sides – the Palestinian and the Israeli. Now we see the fruits of their labor.

I believe it is Israel’s responsibility to ALLOW Palestinian autonomy (they can’t give it), as it was the UN, Britain, France, Italy, and Israel who took it away, and is now Israel’s sole responsibility to allow. However, it is not autonomy as we understand it here in the West. For millennia, the Middle East has been tribal with little if any central governmental leadership. Palestine has never been a “country” as we think of it, but it has been a people, a land, and a region. Think of the US before colonization. Their “way” was not worse, just different. We, of course, think our way works much better – but for what purpose? Economics, industry, innovation, strength? How about morals, family, respect? Point is - we can learn from each other. That is why I don’t ever see us bringing true democracy to Afghanistan. They just don’t think like we do, and they haven’t for thousands of years.

Ok, so I’m digressing. Why not Jordan, Syria, Egypt? For the same reason we don’t expect Mexico, Canada, or Brazil to take care of Native Americans. We displaced them. It is our responsibility to see they are taken care of. And because only Israel controls the occupied territories. What authority do Egypt, Jordan, or Syria have over the West Bank, Gaza, etc… None. Israel technically doesn’t either, but their military might allows them to operate as they wish in those areas with little resistance. That’s where the humanitarian issues and UN resolutions come into play. Google Israel UN violations – there are literally dozens upon dozens with little or no accountability.

The Palestinian territories are like a large Gitmo. Little freedom, encircled by walls, dehumanized, restricted access from the outside world and to the outside world, no hope. How would you or I react in similar circumstances? I am in no way excusing rockets and suicide bombers. But to defeat them, we have to understand them. If they have valid human needs that can be addressed, why don’t we address them? Otherwise just exterminate them (sarcasm) – but it’s better than living as prisoners simply because they were born in the wrong place.

Now, Hamas, and others want the total and complete destruction of Israel. Until they realize that will never happen and it is not an option, we have our hands tied. I believe the Israelis want peace. The Palestinians want hope. We have to find a way to give them both.

Though I am not tabbed, I consider myself part of the brotherhood of the Special Forces. I was in an SF BN for 10 years. I believe in the same ideals, I think in the same ways, I have trained in many of the same ways, done many of the same things, and I have been to war as staff officer in an SF unit. Our motto is, “de opresso liber”. The Palestinians are an oppressed people group. We owe them the same humanitarian treatment we expect for ourselves and others.

How do you accommodate that without catering to terrorists? I don’t know. But it starts by giving people hope, and then by killing the terrorists. And any of us could be terrorists given the right circumstances.

I don't profess to have but a modest understanding of political and religious machinations that rule the Middle East. Some of this understanding comes from spending six of my formative years in Saudi Arabia (my father was a contractor for ARAMCO), so my experiences where those of a child. What I do know is that an ideology by the name of Islam motivates the majority of those creating misery and chaos throughout the region.

I will defer to those with a much more intimate knowledge of Islam and the Middle East for answers. I think Father Zakarias Botros is one of them.

He states:

An article detailing his efforts is posted here:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ad.php?t=20823

His website is:

http://www.fatherzakaria.net/

Listened to the audio of this documentry while working today. It paints a one sided picture that didn't seem to be unfairly biased. Thanks for posting it SF-TX.

This the same UN...
 

You talking about the same UN that is fixin' to make any badmouthing of the Religion of Peace Illegal?

If Gaza is any example of how the Palestinians behave when given land and an opportunity, I would not look forward to a lot more concessions by Israel.

Hamas terrorists, suicide bombers, and rocket rocket attacks on civilian areas are not things we normally desire in our neighbors.

Why is Israel not considered equally worthy of being freed from oppression? They would seem to be surrounded by hostile forces who seek their destruction. At the same time, they have managed, through their own hard work, to thrive in a desert area which was largely undeveloped prior to their arrival.

The former terrorists in the Israeli government are now very old and have largely died off.

TR

What I don't understand and don't appreciate is how the American MSM prominently displays images of the consequences of Israeli attacks on Hamas-held positions. For example, the front page of today's Los Angeles Times features a photograph of a crowd of Palestinians carrying a body.

Where are the photos of (a) the consequences of the rocket attacks that have provoked the current crisis and (b) Hamas's use of violence to suppress dissent and to appropriate humanitarian aid?

To put it bluntly, I was disgusted by pro-Hamas rallies last weekend in Anaheim, CA, especially by the soundbites from self-described experts who argued that American support for Israel decreased America's standing in the world as well as the country's own security and encouraged more terrorism.

I wonder...is it? Or could it be population pressure, perhaps exacerbated by religious issues?

Take a look HERE, where the following data is available:

Population: 1,500,202 (July 2008 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 44.7% (male 343,988/female 325,856)
15-64 years: 52.7% (male 403,855/female 386,681)
65 years and over: 2.7% (male 16,196/female 23,626) (2008 est.)

Median age:
total: 17.2 years
male: 17 years
female: 17.4 years (2008 est.)

Population growth rate:
3.422% (2008 est.)

This is a density of about 4,167 per KM^2. Compare with NY City, with a population density of 10,482 per KM^2 (LINK) Compare Tokyo at 4,750 per KM^2 (LINK)

Add in the young age of the population, the growth, and the poverty - then stir in religious differences - and conflict seems a foregone conclusion.

Want something scary? Crank the population growth rate into a spreadsheet. In a little more than 25 years, the population will double. So to improve their lot, they most increase GDP by some factor plus the growth rate.

I suspect the only solution for areas with the demographic profile above involves substantial and immediate reductions in the existing population, the growth rate, or both. Since that will not happen, the future becomes predictable. Not pleasant; just predictable.

It gets worse. The birth rate of Israeli Jews is barely above the replacement rate. I.e., each Jewish couple in Israel (of which there are fewer and fewer) has, on average, only 2-3 children. The number of Muslim Israeli citizens is approx. 1.7 million, and each Muslim couple averages 4-5 children.

It doesn't take a very big speadsheet to see where this is going. Israel as we know it will cease to exist within 50 years - not because of the rocket attacks, but because Israeli Jews are not breeding very prolifically.

When it gets to that point, I think that America should extend an invitation to every single Israeli Jew to come join us here. They are a great people and would be a great asset to our country.

"The Palestinians are an oppressed people group. We owe them the same humanitarian treatment we expect for ourselves and others."

I need some help here. Who is oppessing the Palestinians? Is it that Arafat is dead, and the PLO is not as strong? Is the PLO the oppressor? Is Hamas the oppressor? Is Isreal the oppressor?

In terms of" liberation", what form would be best? Do we send the Palestininas food, medical aide,or infrastrusture support? Perhaps money for whatever they want would help? For sure more arms, ammo, armor, upgraded missle systems, training in conventional and unconventional warfare would help...just for defense you understand, don't you?

Should you need some expert international advice, expert political advice, and a view that does not include the interests of the USA, well..... I suggest you look to the POTUS after Ford.

My $.02.


RF 1

Demographics is destiny.

And a Happy New Year to you both, Jatx and Red Flag!

and then people wonder why I am moving to Texas...... :rolleyes:


TS, I'll supply not only the coordinates, I'll even be "eyes on the ground" for future strikes... for a few months ;)

The demographics issue is, I believe, not only the most severe problem but also the main reason why the Palestinians and the Arab world in general, as well as all Israel-haters worldwide, are getting more and more rigid and unreasonable about Israel. They now think they will win in the long term anyway, that time is on their side, so why compromise or make concessions?

Must be a reason why Ahmadinejad always refers to Israel as "a corpse" and the like.

Couple that with the lessening support Israel receives from the so-called "international public opinion" and they can get even bolder. People like Abu Mazen or the leaders of Hamas, or even foreign ideological jackals like the Iranians or the Muslim Brotherhood, don't care how many Palestinians will die or live miserable lives before the "inevitable triumph" as long as THEY benefit from the struggle.

If I am not mistaken, the Palestinian leadership is paid (alright, ‘funded’) per capita by the U.N., and consequently, the Palestinian masses are not permitted to leave, and are encouraged to breed. Demographics and immigration (often supported by welfare) are weapons of the Palestinians, Islam in general, and Mexican Nationalism:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

I’m sorry, did I say “weapon”? I meant, “as a tool to further their interests.”

I think you are correct. In addition, they smell "blood in the water" because of Israel's own internal strife and are salivating at the thought of a feeding frenzy.

With regard to birth rates, it's not just Palestinians - it's the entire Muslim population. England and Belgium have already been essentially taken over by Islamic influences and it's only a matter of time. German reproduction is at a low point while Turkish immigrants are reproducing at 2 or 3 times the rate. In 50 years Germany could potentially have a serious Islamic problem. France and Spain could easily follow. In fact, it wasn't too long ago (600 years) that most of Spain was ruled by the Muslim Caliphate.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, the "democratically elected" Hamas doesn't represent the average Palestinian, but feeds on its own thirst for power and revenge. If I place myself in their shoes, I can understand their need for revenge, but as they say, "If you seek revenge, dig two graves". The average Palestinian (and Israeli) wants peace. They want to raise their children in safety. They want to have shelter, food, and clothing. They want an education. But the leaders of Hamas are willing to sacrifice all this for their thirst for blood while their leader hides like a coward in Damascus.

I dealt with bitterness for a long time. But after watching the Amish after the schoolhouse massacre in PA a couple of years ago, and after hearing Auschwitz survivors talk about forgiveness, I began to see that the only one bitterness hurts is oneself and one's family. The only way to achieve true peace is through forgiveness. As a Christian, I knew this, but it was a very difficult obstacle to overcome. In fact, it's an obstacle that recurs and is one that you end up fighting on a daily basis. It's more than a feeling - it's a choice.

Without this there is no hope. Killing will continue. Hate will grow. No one will have peace and safety. This problem affects more than a small strip of land on the Mediterranean. It affects the whole world, and has for 70 years or more.

Well, here in Europe they are still a 3-4% of the population which means they are not taking over so soon. Not that they don't think they will. The problem so far is that they are more and more organizing themselves as a powerful lobby. Like we need yet another one and especially such an aggressive and capricious one.

Which brings up a question...

There was a time in this country when people would march with signs
"BETTER DEAD THAN RED."

How many more attacks before we see a parade of signs:
"BETTER DEAD THAN DHIMMI."?

...but that assumes that there are a significant number of people who even know what a dhimmi is...


.

That assumes much.

Perhaps it all stems from our unwillingness to identify the enemy we face. Instead, we are counseled to "...keep shopping."

Sir, granted that most will not recognize the concept of dhimmitude, I cannot help wondering which group among us is truly unwilling to identify the enemy.

The media, our political leadership, as well as our economic and social elites seem united in their emphasis on shopping. In contrast, their silence on the developing cultural clash is telling. Perhaps the west depends on money from oil producing nations to such an extent that we have already begun a transition from free and equal citizens to dhimmi. Or, perhaps CAIR and similar organizations are particularly effective in their use of litigation to silence others.

I used the collective 'our', because as Benjamin Franklin stated:

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Otherwise, you identified those that are unwilling to identify the enemy, at least publicly.

other protest
 

There's an assumption that Bush is the reason many parts of the world hate America, and Obama would put a new face to America.

Really?

Pro-Palestine rally in Jakarta blames Obama for letting the attack happen


(copy and paste)powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022468.php