Reaper, Sir, Sorry-I forgot I am now among those of high breeding and will leave road kill alone. I have visited Ft. Bragg in June and it was starting to get a bit warm, the guys told me to come back in August when it was "nicer". I'm better off in the snow. ****Question for this discussion**** Has anyone been exposed to any "how to" in contingency edged tools? That is making them from broken glass, rock, found scrap steel? Has anyone watched a knife made with even the crudest of tools?

I've made crude spearheads/knives from rocks, but it hardly was a work of art. Pointers would be most appreciated!

I have seen/made VERY primitive type tools . Lashing/stick/cleaved stone for a edge type stuff. Wasn't very effective in its intended purpose or use. I would be interested in getting some expert instruction/ideas...

Why not start a new thread on improvised edged tools, Sir? :munchin

I'm going to see if i might be able to bring someone in much better than me at edges made from stone. Crude is better than nothing, I can't make any work of art either but can break some basalt until I have a rough chopping tool. Contigency steel is something I can handle, like for example telling you where we can find steel in a car or truck with enough carbon in it to make a rough forged knife blade,(everyone knows the answer to that, the rear suspension leaf springs) how to heat it up for forming on even a stone anvil, etc. I have a friend who is an ex SEAL who teaches this exact stuff. He's one hell of an outdoorsman and hunts all the time with primitive technology. I use the word "primitive" to reference the historical period from which he patterns his weapons, not the skill and efficiency exhibited in the field.

I've made a crude machete from a piece of spring-steel (car spring). Basically used a rather large rock with a flat surface to create an edge. Took quite a while, worked OK (not great, but it worked). Handle was two halfs of a split branch with 550 cord wrapped around it.

Did you forge that hot? Well done anyway you did that. Putting roundness in the handle is very important to keep from ruining the hand after hard work.

Didn't forge it at all. Just sharpened the edge with the stone. Took forever (I had a lot of time).

Holy crap, you guys are tougher than I'd ever imagined.

A leaf spring is excellent steel for a blade. I have seen many knives made from them.

Yes leaf springs are very servicable for tough duty knives. All are at least a medium carbon steel that can be hardened and tempered for knife use. Some spring steels have enough carbon to be considered high carbon steels. The reason they are not considered tool steels is they are a simple alloy of mostly iron and carbon (Yes, I know what ASIA 5160 spring steel is made of but don't start that here) and the amount of refinement at the steel mills to remove inclusions and other impurities from the billet before rolling into usable stock is not as refined a process as for high grade tool steels. Forging these spring steels, even in primitive conditions, can further refine this material into a valuable blade. I know some of you have seen this done in other countries. Greenhat, Sir, get the sumbitch warm next time, shaping the steel will go a little faster.

Old Files can also be fashioned into good blades.

They're tougher than Woodpecker Lips, but it can be done.

Files have the highest carbon content of about any steel you are going to pick up, This is for maximum hardness so they can cut other metals including steel that has been hardened (for example an axe bit). This hardness also can get in the way of ductility (pry bar strength), files can be brittle. You can temper a file to reduce some of this hardness while maintaining most of the very good edge holding. Yes they are tougher than wood pecker lips and are damned hard to grind on a "rock" (bench grinding wheel). They sure make some very pretty sparks while your doing it!

Just stubborn.

That's also an honorable attribute.

Some call it stubbornness, I prefer to call it persistence and fortitude.

I believe that in an article I posted earlier, an SF NCO said it well, and I paraphrase:

"We aren't Supermen, we just don't quit. Ever."

TR

1980, Mariel Boat Lift. I was in the 82nd ABN Div, 1-505. We get a mission to head to Ft. Indiantown Gap, Pa. secure the base and watch the Cubans.

We pull dozens of surprise inspections collecting weapons fashioned by the Cuban prisoners. One their favorites was taking a “bunk adapter� and beating it until they have a very good working machete. We removed all the bunk adapters once we realized just what the hell they were using to make the machetes. The remarkable thing about it, they had no tools to work with!

TS

Well, I had forgot about prisoner creations. I worked in a med/max security state prison for three years.

One of the improvised blade weapon I saw was made by taking a cafeteria tray... bending a 1" strip off one of the sides of it by repeated bending of a crease/fold back and forth until it came off in a straight edge.. then sharpening one end of it into a sharp edge (mainly a jabbing weapon though) for personal defense.

Made for a VERY effective crude weapon on flesh.

Bingo.

"Sacamuelas, Prison Dentist".

Can't wait for the movie.

TR

LOL... :p

Back to thread....

Thanks for the stories of prison made knives. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

These are not as primitive as Bill is looking for, but they are field expedient. Over time, I have picked up a couple galvanized steel timber spikes (150x5 mm) and aluminum gutter spikes (200x6 mm).

With a couple of these in your kit, I believe you can create several survival tools for defense and food gathering.

Has anyone tried to use these or similar items, for anything other than as intended??

Does anyone see a similarity to the current trend in Executive Battle Pens
or Kubotan sticks??


Field expedient means thinking outside the box.. :D

THE Spoon
 

Remember the old white spoon issued with LRRPS, damn near strong as steel with a nice point on the handle end?

It is a long story but once after having been set-up for capture at the resupply drop during an exercise, the interrogators discovered we had lots of spoons but no food. When the Tm Ldr was being "interviewed" using the good guy approach. He was asked why we all saved the spoons. The Tm Ldr calmly replied "they are very useful for other things" Interrogator "like what", Tm Ldr "well, I could kill you with it"!

Lots of truth there.

MVP

Insulators. :D

TR

Well using a hacksaw blade I've cut out spear, arrow and knife shaped material from discarded oil cans and car bodies and then used a file to sharpen the edge(s)...They worked Ok.

I've been interested in knapping either flint or obsidian for years and had even taken a short weekend course on how to do it and the items I've made, while serviceable, are nowhere near pretty.

Using the same knowledge you can turn glass pop bottle bottoms into very serviceable points and I made an Ulu shaped skinner from a large bottle that I was very proud of--worked very well skinning caribou until I stepped on it by accident which I then made into two arrow points.

I've lashed them to arrows made of reeds and spears from saplings and well as fire hardening the sapling to make a digging spear.

I've also used fresh water clam shells as skinners of rabbits, deer and fish and the edges are extremely sharp and stay sharp for a long time.

Of course there are always the clubs that can be made utilizing a rock and if shaped can be effective axes as well...I did make a bolo with three river rocks tied with babiche (moose guts or sinew) to some thongs of moosehide but never snagged anything with them.

Flint Knapping
 

I have tried some flint knapping over the years and have successfully made servicable points. It takes a lot of time and broken rock, but it is an interesting challenge. There are a lot of good resources online for info on the topic.

Spear Point
 

Here is a point I just finished. It's pretty crude, but would do the job.

Spear Head
 

Nice job Shark bait. Looks like you've been practicing for awhile. Definitely will do the job.

Have you done an Apache Bow/Arrow setup yet? Looks like you're ready...

Thanks. I haven't tried making bows yet. That may be a good project to attempt soon. Dusty just hooked me up with a nice longbow, though. :D

Shark bait, nice work!
(now you need to make a dozen of equal weight :D)

Check out how this guy breaks down a big chunk of basalt old school style.
Almost every spall and flake that comes off is a usable knife blade.
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SbMO...feature=relmfu

Haha, that would be a trick! You are quite right about the spalls. Anyone can make a very effective knife blade with just a little basic knowledge of flint knapping. The material makes for some extremely sharp edges, especially obsidian. Obsidian blades have been used for delicate eye surgery. I have heard of a video where a man cleans an entire deer with a knapped blade. I'll have to check youtube.

SharkBait....noticing your location, what type of material did you use for the point? Was it local or shipped to you from the states?

Back in the 80', I was doing a little experimental archaeology and butchered an entire deer from field gutting to the freezer using two flint flakes spalled from a core...each was about 5".

A little something I made a few months ago....

Aaahhhh....now that I've got this photo attachment figured out....

A little gift I gave to a friend last month, former Principle Chief Robert Youngdeer, Eastern Band of Cherokees (1982-1986). He was Marine during WWII, wounded on Guadalcanal, retired Army First Sargeant (Airborne).

Carl

Bill

I watched all 6 videos,, impressed is not the word,, in awl,, is still weak. :eek:

Does Jim "see" a blade in the stone or does his talents,, and a little luck "find" the blade as he shapes the stone??

Also, is there a use for a blade that big??

Nice
 

I had it shipped to me from CONUS. I have to say that your skills surpass mine by quite a bit. I have not made anything as pretty as your knife blades. Good work!

Great pics and amazing work! This is something I am going to attempt as soon as the temp drops below 125 here in Arizona...;)

Very nice. Did you use modern tools on the handle, or no?

Industrial size hacksaw blade did for me, full length tang sandwiched between hardwood which was shaped to fit... Well sort of as I'm no good at carpentry.
Sharpened both edges and even kept a little bit of the serration near the handle.
It kept a real nice edge when in use.
Just a shame I made it look good enough for somebody else to want to have it :mad:

JJ_BPK,

Not meaning to hijack this from Bill, I would like to attempt an answer to your questions.

Jim (and other knappers) see the blade or point in their "mind's eye" before taking off the first flake or spall. It is his skill (talent) that takes off everything that doesn't look like the blade within the stone. Luck only comes into play if there are no flaws within the stone to cause a break (such as hairline fractures or quartz occlusions). There is no randomness in flake removal. Each flake or spall taken off is planned and deliberately removed in the thinning process. It is a planned and controlled process of lithic reduction. Generally, the first few flakes will tell you how well the stone is going the react.

The basic rule to remember...the line of fracture thru the rock for flake removal will be at an angle of about 120 degrees from the line of force of the billet striking the surface (flat area or platform, not a sharp edge).

Use for a blade that big? During Mississippian times... they were made for ceremonial purposes only. Today...sell it for about $10-$15 an inch. For survival... I would rather travel light than carry something that large and heavy with me. Each spall and flake is a tool and weapon in itself. As we in archaeology say, "It ain't gotta be pretty to be functional"!

Damn...didn't mean to write a dissertation!

Carl