My first Ruck woes
 

I just started my pre-training for my 18x enlistment and did my first ruck today. I went on a 4 mile ruck over some pretty rough terrain that contained sand, rock and grass at different points plus some hills (im in Florida, hills are hard to come by :p) I completed this in about an hour and 10 minutes with 30lb pack. I recently bought some Altama jungle boots as well and this was their first time out. Before the ruck march I treated them over night (twice actually) with mink oil and I also prepared my feet with arid XXX and foot powder right before I went out. At the end I felt pumped out knowing I was on my way to attaining my goal and logging my first miles. My dilemma is that I did attain 1 blister (dime sized) on my left heel. I dunno if maybe I bought the wrong size boots (which then im screwed since altama doesnt take returns after use) or am I gonna attain blisters no matter what I do to prevent them. Looking for the BTDT thoughts... Should I just suck it up and keep rucking or revaluate what Im doing?

p.s. I made sure I was using army issue socks. (Believe all my t's are crossed and i's dotted). Also thanks to the professionals on this forum and Warrior mentor for all the valuable info made available. :lifter

You think you can run a marathon with no prep and not suffer?

Your feet are soft and weak.

Search all of the ruck threads here, do what we told everyone else, and suck it up while you lay down some more miles.

My kids can do four miles without blistering. That is nothing. You have a lot of work ahead of you, stud.

TR

I still have callouses on my feet that can protect me from 16d nails (well, almost) it took lots of miles to turn them into APCs inside the LPCs. Keep working on it, remember where the hotspots are and protect them for the next few outings... moleskin, tincture of benzoin (or nuskin) and mind over matter - that's what'll get them dogs into shape.

My Daughter..
 

Son, my daughter does sub 55 minute 4 miles with hand weights and a fanny pack. And she's still in high school and don't break a sweat at that pace. She does sub 50s if it's getting close to Gray's Anatomy time.

Get the book and get with the program.

Pete

Sir I know 4 miles is nothing...By the time I leave my goal is to do 18 miles with a 55-60 lb rack. Anything more is excess and cause for injury (that's your advice). I was merely doing the 4 miles today in order to "break in" the boots since they are new and according to "the book" by warrior mentor your intial ruck should be no longer than 4 miles. If it was up to me I would of walked myself into unconsciousness. Gradually I will increase distance and weight (crawl, walk, run). I was merely stating my situation and technique to make sure I had no flaws and could starting logging in miles and toughing my feet. Thank you.

-John :lifter

casket or tab.

Jrome - Hush. We've all been where you're going, we don't need the "blow by blow" account of your journey. Next time you have a problem, ask a question - succinctly - and somebody will be along shortly with an answer. Don't forget the search button - blisters are a common problem and we've devoted a lot of bandwidth to the subject. FWIW, I would recommend doing your initial conditioning (feet and boots) marches on a uniform surface. Try to stay off of concrete and asphalt. My personal favorites are developed running trails, firebreaks, or the grassy shoulder of a secondary road. It reduces the risk of training injuries and encourages development of a uniform pace. When the boots are broken in and the feet/body are toughened up then you can push the envelope. Doing it right - even with limited time before your report date - is much more efficient than doing it wrong, getting injured, and having to start all over AFTER you've healed. Now go work on your pushups. My .02 - Peregrino

You're whining to the wrong crowd.

I once ran 18 miles, in full combat gear in a thunderstorm in under 2.5 hours hours. Jungle boots and Army socks. When I was finished I rang my socks out in blood, yes blood, I did complete the mission.

My LBE alone weighed 30 lbs.

You are soft. Time to get hard.

If you think that is a bullshit story I know others that have completed the Q-Course 20 mile ruck-run with broken legs.

Don't post again on this board again until you can run 10 miles in the same time it took you to "ruck" 4 miles.

That's not a request.

Team Sergeant

Read only young man
 

JUST READ AND MOVE OUT

1. Altimas are NOT ALLOWED in SFAS. Trust me..I wrote the packing list. Any boot with ANY type of RUNNING SHOE TYPE SOLE or DESIGN is UNAUTHORIZED

2. Dime sized blister? Don't panic until you have no more room for blisters..that means the entire sole of your foot is ONE BIG BLISTER..until then, drain them and keep moving. Everyone is SFAS gets blisters!

3. Consider this your opportunity to develop "Thick Skin"...without it, you will never develop into a true SF dude!

Good luck...

Daver sends

Thanks Peregrino info noted.
Team sergeant I will get harder.
Daver I bough the altimas becuase they advertised being the official manufacturer of the DOD, guess I bought the boots that arent useable at SFAS :confused: , know of anyplace to by the jungle boots I will be issued online ? Im going down to Army Navy surplus tomorrow see what info I get.

You will not be issued jungle boots. Either buy yourself a pair of the plain black combat boots or even better, buy yourself a pair of plain desert tan boots.

And a suggestion, start paying closer attention to the posts by the QPs....

EDIT: Spelling

If you keep getting blisters on the heel of your foot you might want to think about getting the heel cup removed. I've done it with all my field boots and haven't had any problems since.

That's a qualifying pace for the Boston marathon !! :eek:

One suggestion I can make is buy knee high women's nylons, put them under your socks. This helps with friction, it is an old trick, a very old friend in SF told me about before I ever went into the army. I also still have calluses on the top sides and bottom of my feet and even though I am retired I cover between 5 and 10 miles 5 days a week. I was not in Special Forces but I did complete and train for an annual march conducted in the Netherlands. I also caught the flu by the second day and finished the last three days of 25 miles a day, with 103 degree temperature. The first 15 miles is your body after that it is the mind that keeps you going. It is my opinion that being physically fit and able to complete missions should be a lifetime goal and not a temporary or short term goal.

you seem surprised...

One ruck doesn't justify cutting out your heel cups....time to toughen the feet while breaking in the boots first.

Cutting out the heel cups is an extreme fix IMHO. Wouldn't recommend doing that until you've rucked mre than once in them...

8:20 min miles with around 100+ lbs plus rain water for 18 miles.

OK......I'll be honest here......I'm impressed.

:eek: :lifter :D

(and here I am thinking 12 miles in 180min is pretty good)
(give me a minutes while I open up my personal goals document and make some changes :D )

Damn it
 

Damn it!

Just when I was getting with in a ball park of my goal, Team Sergeant goes and change the goal posts. :D :lifter

It was not over 100 lbs... It was 18 miles, it was raining cats and dogs.
I did ring my socks out in blood. The medic that treated me and sent me home was killed in Desert Storm.

Team Sergeant

Assumption
 

My apologies for the assumption Team Sergeant,

My understanding is that at SFAS we are carrying a total of 95lbs +- above standard PT gear (Shorts / Shoes / Tshirt)

Ruck + Weight = 5 + 55 (+-)
Loaded M16A2 = 9
Loaded LBE = 20 +- (water ammo etc)
Boots, BDUs, assorted battle rattle = 5

TOTAL = 94

Assumed similar in your situation.

Still blown away by time, back in my lane.

out

TS;
Eloy or Otto I presume, it was a bad night. Been a long time since then...RIP guys.

Clarification
 

If I confused anybody regarding boot styles maybe this will clear things up...
If you come to SFAS, we will check your boots..if you have any boot that looks, sounds, acts, or feels like a tennis shoe, resembles a Hi-tech, Oakley, Adidas, or anything close...we will not allow you to use them....if you spend lots of $$$$$ having a high speed sole put on your boots, it better not change the make up to be like a tennis shoe style.....we will confiscate them and you will have to borrow boots from your buddies.... BLUF...don't try to get over..wear an approved Army issue boot...bring 2 pair of well broken in boots...SFAS is NOT the place to break them in, and toughen your feet up before you come here. You will get blisters.... you will ruck long distances with heavy stuff.... and you will carry even more heavy stuff in team week...all the SFAS cadre know the tricks and you aren't going to fool anybody...we've heard every reason, excuse, justification there is.
Here is the SFAS packing list that was put out NOV 2006...pay attention to Note #3....http://www.bragg.army.mil/specialfor...ing%20List.doc

....do the best you can!

Sheep Counter
 

Hello Daver,

My father was a Platoon Commander in VN, we were talking about Land Nav and equipment etc. He swears by using a Sheep Counter, you may call it a people counter.

Little contraption that he'd strap to his M16 and helped him keep counter while very Dick and Harry where talking to him. You click the button and the mechanism would turn over.

Having just done some night Land Nav yesterday, I can see why it would be invaluable.

Here’s a bad example of one.
http://www.amazon.com/SSG-Tally-Coun.../dp/B0000BYSQN

Before I go out and spend $50 on a solid steel silent one, I thought I'd ask weather there was a chance it would be allowed, or as I ship in 6 weeks might just be a waste of money and go with the beads instead.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Scimitar

Guys I would listen to Daver he knows what he is talking about.

jrome, you can chalk this up as a learning experience. Everyone will be issued boots at Basic (which WILL be authorized for wear) and should clearly have more than ample time to break them in at Basic, AIT, Airborne, SFPC, etc. BEFORE arriving at lovely Camp MacKall, NC.

And as I have posted here a whole lot of times for some of you other guys...

Stop trying to get over or be cool or different, or whatever you use as the rationale, AND JUST USE WHAT THE LIST SAYS AND BRING NOTHING ELSE.

As bad as some boots suck, and as painful as it is to break in a new pair, can you imagine going home because your boots did not pass shakedown or having to wear one pair that were a size or more off for the entire time?

The instructions really aren't that complicated, it sort of says something about your intelligence, comprehension, and ability to follow simple instructions if you screw it up.

TR

Opps
 

Sorry Folks,

Didn't actually read the list in full before previous post.

Things like

this

and this

Answer my question.

Thank you

out

Damn son.

Why don't you quit digging, sit down, stop assuming and calculating, and STFU for a while? Plenty here to read, you would probably learn a lot more that way.

In fact, if you had read the stickies, like we ask everyone to, you would have found the very same packing list upon arrival here.

Don't post again for a week.

TR

Nobody chases those people.



Jrome - the Team

Team - Jrome.

:)

Awed....

approx 8 minute mile in full combat gear, in the rain, questionable terrain, jungle boots plus some extra weight vs controlled environment, water stops, light gear, no extra weight, not even hydration systems and running shoes etc.....
....well....damn.

Sorry for the hijack.

Let’s keep this in perspective, just for the record I didn’t finish first. And while this may be an awe inspiring feat for civilians, it is not for Special Forces soldiers. I will not publish exactly what it weighed as someone on here may want to some day attempt it themselves. I did have an experienced mentor as my second "Team Sergeant" was a 6’10 Norwegian that goes by the name "Van".;)

One-Zero, yes it was "Rod" that checked me out and sent me home. Told me to stop by the store on the way, purchase lots of beer and some food for a week, take my shoes and socks off and keep them off and not to return to work for 10 days.

Jrome this is pretty standard stuff for Special Forces soldiers. It’s a mixture of physical and mental toughness and if you do not have both you and many others will never make it into our ranks. If you are forced to search for your "Happy Place" over a 4 mile ruck with 30 lbs you might want to think about joining the Air Force instead.

Scimitar,
I do not advocate that "new guys" try to match this level of training, not at least until they are asked to "step up to the plate". Stick with what Warrior Mentor wrote in his book and the SFAS prep guidelines.

Team Sergeant

I believe I have mentioned this before. When I had my business, Mountaineering, I learned to be a boot fitter. Having been a boot fitter, I fell some sort of complusiveness to write this. Hope it helps some one to avoid feet problems.


Part of the problem is how our feet are designed and the changes in dimension they go through during a stride. Boot manufactures can not make a boot for the general population that works 100%. Each person foot can be very unique in that how it needs to become stabilized in the boot. Blisters are a cause of friction from movement in side the boot. Stabilizing the foot will reduce or eliminate blisters.

A stabilized foot will not pronate more than 1/4 of a size. Non-stabilized feet can pronate up to 3 sizes or more. The best size to buy a boot is your Non-weighted foot length. Then the foot is stabilized by a food bed to prevent pronation. It may be a "trim to fit" or a custom molded insole. Trim to fit, works for people whose feet do no pronate more than 1/2 size.

Generally to allow for pronation, people will buy boots that are too large for their foot. The boot does not support the foot adequately, allowing for movement.

Other issues on boot construction is volume. Manufacturers tend to make boot with a little more than the average in volume. People with bony feet will need to have the volume of the boot reduced to cut down on movement from the larger cavity their foot is in.

The most critical measurement is Arch length. The ball of your foot needs to fit where the widest part of the boot is. If your foot is a 9 1/2 and you buy a 10 1/2 boot the ball of foot will fit behind the widest part of the boot.

A well fitting boot should fit snug with little to no movement.

Good socks help too. Also it is desirable to buy the boot with the socks that you are going to be wearing in those boots. Sock thickness will effect volume. Sock construction is also important as with the material they are made out of.

Great advice for people who are free to choose their footgear.

Might even be an option for people who have already been selected, and certainly for civilians or other people who do not have UNIFORM requirements.

Those of you prepping for SFAS make sure that both pairs of your ISSUE boots fit properly, have good insoles, are broken in well for your foot, and that you have nearly new ISSUE socks. It is okay to have a favorite pair, but make sure that both pair are equally well fitted and broken in. I have seen plenty of studs on the last day with Bozo boots taped together after the uppers separated completely from the lowers. I would suppose that minor mods like removal of heel cups or toe caps from, an ISSUE boot would be okay, but if you have ripple soles, hospital soles, running shoe soles, etc., they will likely be rejected. Since the List didn't specify ISSUE insoles and laces, I would look for a good pair of Superfeet or SOLE Footbeds and some comfortable, durable black laces that look issue. Bring extra laces as well.

We do not want to hear people commenting that they slipped by and got through the course with non-issue boots. The rules are clear. If the CIF didn't issue it to you, it really isn't ISSUE. If you get caught and returned to your unit or have to borrow an ISSUE pair that are two sizes too small, you will be paying the price for FTFSI.

The Military Clothing Sales Stores sell many things that are not ISSUE, never mind the local surplus store. One of the worst was the Korean and then Chinese knock-offs of the ISSUE jungle boot. Most would not last through the break-in period.

Save the Gucci gear for civilian wear and deployments to remote areas.

Bring ISSUE gear to SFAS.

Are you guys getting the hint here? ISSUE means just that!

TR

Hey Daver,

I plan on attending SFAS in January, how is the weather at Camp Mackall during that time of year? Never been to NC, actually havent been more north than Georgia lol; except for a few hunting trips to Montana dont have much expierence with the cold.

(wanted to post here rather than create new thread)

there seems to be a common thread here...

just in case you missed the point, TR means that SFAS isn't the prom...you don't need a tux, you don't need new shoes...the stuff that got you through basic will do just fine...just don't show up with the body you had in basic...

You must have thought I was kidding when I said not to post again. Now you can sit and read.

TS

Complete lack of SA and a lack of respect.:rolleyes:

Bye bye, j.

TR

Well gentlemen, ive followed this entire thread, and ive used the search function, but still have a specific question. The SFAS packlist states to bring BDUs or ACUs. I have two sets of each, BDUs from BCT, and ACUs were just recently issued. Would it be acceptable to bring both for a total of 4 uniforms? (i also have the corresponding boots, black for bdus, etc...)

Snake, what is the title and topic of this thread?

TR

My mistake, wont happen again.

Sorry QP's!!!....
 

Sorry guys,
I opened a can of worms with some simple advice and a packing list...I think there are too many barracks lawyers who try to find/dig/conjure(sp?) up some sort of magical way to get through SFAS. I won't make that mistake again.
For anyone preparing for SFAS, good luck, do the best you can, and just do it. Follow the guidance from the men here, carry only what is on the packing list, quit trying to find a magical answer that just does NOT exist! If you quit in SFAS, you can't be selected regardless of the type of boots or how many BDU's you have, or your ruck times. The only magical answer I have for you...DON'T QUIT!
:mad:

No worries, I just don't want the thread to drift too far off topic.

I am shocked that people cannot read that list and decide pretty quickly what they can bring.

Appreciate your input, as always Daver.:cool:

TR

Thanks TR,
I believe when all of us more senior guys.....and all of those really senior guys..LOL..went through the SFQC, we didn't have this kind of access to information and discussion, but instead, relied on our own intestinal fortitude and desire to be the best on our own accord. These young men who try today are no less inspired and willing to sacrifice just like we were, but I think there is a misconception that we can supply them with the magic bullet that will help them make it. I don't have any high speed techniques or ideas...I'm old fashioned...get blisters..walk some more..let the blisters get a little bloody, pop them..put tincture benzoine (try not to scream like a girl!) in them and weld the flap of skin closed, and keep going....repeat as needed until feet are tough..oh yeah, carry a lot of weight. My dinosaur mentality usually worked when it came to carrying a ruck...and I'm not exactly a big guy..HaHa...that's why I say just do it! :lifter

TR, thanks for keeping us all straight here....
"Do the best you can"

Daver sends