Tactics gone wrong
 

About a half-hour before the deadline, a SWAT team used explosives to blow a hole in a classroom wall in hopes of getting a clear shot at him. When they couldn't see him through the gap, they blew the door off the hinges to get inside, said Lance Clem, a spokesman for the state Department of Public Safety.

Morrison fired at the SWAT officers, shot Keyes as she tried to run away and then killed himself, authorities said. During the gun battle, police shot Morrison several times, they said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216564,00.html

If what has been written above is true someone needs a lot more training.

Explosive breaching is not for amateurs. Does anyone know who did the breaching/assault?

(Yeah I'm really pissed that a little 16 year old girl is dead partly because of what I read above.)

Team Sergeant

Hi TS

Yeah,when i heard this i was surprised too. I am certainly no hostage rescuse expert, or even close, but why not use flash bang etc?

Regardless i think blowing hole in order to see him was the mistake, it gave him time to shoot abd by the time they breeched the door, surprise was out the window.

There are also many ways to 'see' a hostile without blowing a hole in a wall, maybe i am missing something here?

Sad ending indeed.

Hoepoe

I'd say so!!!

People work with what they have; don't always make the best decisions; and have to learn from their mistakes. I too am sick that a young girl paid the price for a LEO screw-up! I doubt I am as troubled as the officers who made the poor decisions.

I think our team would have just made the forced entry (blown the door), tossed in a flash bang, and then gone for the guy!



Jim

Had this been an "Emergency" assault I'd agree with you. You must also know when the operation is "out of your league".

This was no emergency or hasty assault, it was planned thus a "deliberate" assault. The use of explosives to breech walls and doors makes it a major league operation, small PD's have no business even attempting such a deliberate takedown.

I'll reserve further opinion until it is disclosed just who did the assault.

TS

I have some insight into the rescue attempt and am familiar with the Jefferson County SWAT Team. Jeff Co was called in as Park County Sheriff Department, whose jurisdiction Bailey is situated, is a small agency with no SWAT. Jeff Co is a Metro agency that borders western and southern Denver. Park County is on their south border.

A couple of things that came into play:

The badguy had released hostages during the ordeal who supplied information to LE. This information included;
the fact that the badguy was sexually assaulting the females.

The method and extent to which the room had been barricaded, to include desks and chairs being piled up in front of the door.

His stated possession of a bomb.

His stated deadline to kill the remaining two hostages.

This was not some impromptu taking of hostages. The entire scenario had been scripted by the badguy with his goal being an instigated gun battle with LE to the death. (His handwritten manuscript detailing this will probably be released)

The point of entry was selected by determining which entry point would offer the least amount of impediment to the target while minimizing risk to the hostages. 2X4's and Drywall or a door with furniture stacked up.

I believe it will also be discovered that this was not a single explosive entry. I think you will find that there were two simultaneous points. I think you will also eventually learn, through official channels, that diversion was used ( as suggested in a previous post.)

I too was upset that a small girl was killed. I was even mad at Jeff Co SWAT for awhile, thinking.........what if my little girl. When the smoke cleared I came to the realization that in a rescue attempt, such as this, there is no room for error. Absolutely no room for error. The cards are stacked in the favor of the badguy.

Which one of you can honestly say, putting yourself in the same position as the badguy, that you would not be able to get off a shot as SWAT was coming through the wall or door. Some of you could get off several well placed shots even on a perfectly executed entry.

It was a difficult task performed by men willing to take that bullet for the little girl. Men who have daughters near the age of the victim. Each of them will live with feelings of impotence. But were they impotent or were they given a mission with a low probability of complete success. I think the latter. In fact, SWAT actions by their very nature have low probabilities of success.

As a side note this school was built after the Columbine incident. Special architechural designs were implemented to address just this scenario.

All that being said, if it were my daughter I'd demand the teams training records, breaching trainingg records and schools attended with emphasis on who attended the breaching school and who taught it.

I'll say no more. (Joe Public is on his own.)

Team Sergeant

TS:

WTF? Sounds like a bunch of liberals to me. If you investigate this entire incident you will find all the mental illness of liberalism. Not enough demo in the wrong places and not enough aggressive advance. Of course if they did these things , the law suits would be more significant than they will be now.

The poor child had no chance. Liberalism in the LEA and the country is a death sentence.

Be pissed if you want. If you have kids -- send them to a private school.

As for me? Tell the fuck he has five minutes to surrender and then attack with full force via four different means within thirty seconds of giving the five minute ultimatum. Shoot the poor victim of society (according to the American Communist Party) various times ((at least twenty with the liberal ammo that LEA is forced to carry today (something less than .45 inches in diameter)), and do so directly between the running lights. Then you just "let the big dog eat."

He may just shoot the poor child but the communists in this country have set the stage for such antics by scumbags. The best we can hope for is that the scumbag won't cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars in appeals. This one didn't and I honestly would rather kill off his entire blood line than listen to the media tell me how this subhuman had some mental disorder.

The only mental disorder this piece of filth had was a lack of 'Pb' in his brain.

Gene

I still say that teams work with what they have and do the best they can udner the cirumstances they are given. It is not a perfect world. You can't control everything all the time.

The SWAT team that shot the dirt bag in Fl yesterday is going to catch hell from the liberal left...... the dirt bag never fired a round and the team emptied their magazines..... my buddies tell me the bad guy was hit over a hundred times......at close range. Real close range.

Jim

Good outcome!

Tactics gone never as planned
 

From the reports I read. it was obvious that the two Explosive Breaches were carried out simultaneously, they always are when creating a Port Hole. It is common practice for LEO to create Port Holes for security of the Entry Team. Many LEA'S today use Explosive Breaching. Just attend the next Breachers symposium. With today’s prefabricated firing Systems and Charges or Charge Frame material. Explosive Breaching has been simplified. Of course target analysis is still a complicated skill. All an Agency has to do is send a couple of there officers to one of The Many certified Breaching Courses and they are good to go on the training side as far as legalities go when conducting Explosive Breaching. That’s all I can add to this until a full report is released. I praise them for having the Balls to use Explosive Breaching and not to mention putting their lives at risk to save someone Else's life.
"A plan is only good to the first shot is fired"

How does the thickness of a wall come into play when breaching? My high school was built in the '50s when everyone was afraid of nuclear strikes... walls were about 6" thick solid concrete.

Moving, NDD.

TA
 

I was just begining.........you never let me play.......

It was only 68 hits
 

From the Orlando Sentinel
Gary Taylor and Kelly Griffith | Sentinel Staff Writers
Posted October 1, 2006

Face to face with an armed man suspected of killing a Polk County deputy sheriff, SWAT officers riddled his body with 68 bullets.

Altogether, nine officers fired 110 times Friday at Angilo Freeland, who Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said "executed" one of his deputies.

"That's all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more," Judd said after autopsy results were released Saturday. (LOL)


Seems that "real close range" was right on top of the bad guy. Seems to me that someone needs to spend more time on the range.


I think the sherriff needs to stop talking so much. He's just giving ammunition to the people who will sue for excessive force. It won't be the first time down here.

Full story here.

Thanks for posting the full story access, Kyo.
When I first read this, I thought that sounds excessive. Then I had to remind myself to get all the facts. After reading the link that Kyo posted it defintely brought a different light to my thoughts, not that this story alone presented all the facts.
"Excessive" as defined by webster's-" going beyond the usual,necessary, or proper limit or degree ". This man has a history of criminal behavior, shot three LEO, killing two of them, stolen weapons & ammo, & is hiding to evade capture hoping to escape accountability & responsibility for his choices. The only thing standing between this killer & other innocent people is brave men/women doing what civil government has given them authority, training, & equipment to do.
Excessive! I say to those that would ask this question, I will answer this when you answer these. Is it execessive when an LEO believes he is about to write a citiation or possibly just give a warning, to be shot in the leg? Is it a little excessive when two officers go out for a "routine" patrol, with just the intent to keep the public safe, are murdered, executed, by someone they did not know, & now are not able to return to those they love. Exactly how many bullets constitue "excessive". I would say ONE was in the case of Deputy Williams's partner's case.
I am thankfull for free press, I just wish it was not so profitable so that it would go to reporting the facts instead of trying to take facts out of context to sell stories.

NSDQ :munchin

Kyo:

I think you are spot on!
"That's all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more," Judd said after autopsy results were released Saturday. (LOL)

I think the sherriff needs to stop talking so much. He's just giving ammunition to the people who will sue for excessive force. It won't be the first time down here."



More ammunition! Someone will undoubtedly pay a price for those comments! It will be found to be excessive force!

Would a 500lb bomb dropped on one man be considered excessive force?

Probably not, if point fire weapons were not suitable, for whatever reason...But 20 500lber's might be.

I once salvoed 72 17lb warheads (2.75 in rockets) into the largest buddhist Monastery in the world, the rest of my platoon followed suit! We demolished it, totally excessive force, but a worthy effort, none the less!!

Different scenario, different rules. You can't compare civilian procedures and tactics to military procedures and tactics.

So, do I think what happened in Lakeland was excessive? No. They reacted as their training and emotions permited; I just think the sherriff needs to use what little brain he has between his ears before he speaks or let the PIO do the talking.


"Hey Bubba, pass me another mag. This'n here done run out."

Once deadly force is justified (and warranted) it doesn't matter how many rounds are fired. Once the justification runs out then you have an excessive force issue.

-Not a knock on you Kyo... I agree with you, the Sheriff should shut up and let certain things go unsaid.

Those guys and girls were emotionally pumped. They did exercise some control. After "gun" and "shoot" were shouted they all stopped at one magazine!

When you say close, one officer was close enough to pick up a shirt that covered the hand the dirt bag would not show and expose the handgun he was holding.

Excessive force? After the first two or three rounds does the rest really matter. The guy did not want to give up. He had already killed two officers (one man one dog), wounded one officer, and shot at a third. He refused to show both hands when the officers were on top of him. He made the choice to go out in a hail of bullets.


Jim

I had heard the word "executed" used in one news report. I would agree with all of the above posters the talking head from the SO needs to STFU. As I understand it PD trains to shoot until the subject is no longer a threat. 9 Swat firing at one target=68 hits in a span of what a few seconds vs 1 man firing one gun with 8 hits? Seems reasonable to me they fired less than the criminal did...and offered the chance to give up first.

As a side note where was the vest, in the trunk? For that matter where was the dogs vest? I have several friends with the SO and I bet right now their vests are in the trunk as well while they are out tonight on patrol. One guy told me his was uncomfortable and tight my response was something like I bet your casket will be too. :(

Jason, I have spent my life around the cops here and I have yet to see a K-9 with ballistic armor. I have seen them with shoes on and SAR dogs with blaze organge or that bright reflective yellow harnesses but that is it.

On a side note, we (us kids and a lot of the family) hounded my dad for three years before he wore his vest and even then it was made mandatory by his agentcy.

The Bailey, CO thing was a bad deal no matter how you look at it. Unf ortunately the LEO has it's hands nearly tied, a major differance from SF. I aalso have tothink JEFF CO SWAT has some very highly trained officers in explosives. I never thought this until I spent a few years in law enforcement. Bigger agencies spend the money to have their people trained. I recently returned from FLETC. the instructors for ATF there are retired military EOD guys.
They know their business. Many larger departments have their explosive guys trained by people of this caliber.

The odds are stacked against LEO in a multitude of ways. The media is on site making up their versions of what is happening to get the hype the want. The hostages, in this case the 16 year old girl, wass doomed from the start. Do I agree with all this crap our society has placed on cops? Not in the least. Military and cops have tactics that differ a lot, not because of the individuals, but because of society and lawyers looking to get rich. It continues to be pushed to left more and more every year. The next factor to consider is what many are terming the new breed of cops.

The most unfortunate part of this entire episode is the girl. I dissagree with a lot of what went on, but I can't fault the cops very much. Time was staring them in the face.

One of the agencies here had a vest purchased via public fundraiser by kids who were worried about the dogs safety. The K-9's here often show up in schools for programs.

It seems kinda silly to spend $15k+ on a dog and not protect it but thats just me.

Back to topic: The high school here I went to most all of the rooms are concrete block and steel with no windows. It felt much like being in a prison and when I went there last year for a graduation it looks even more so now with the metal detectors, cameras and guards. :(

What is everyone's opinion on the often discussed (post school crimes) solution of letting teachers carry weapons? On one hand, it may help act as a deterrent. On the other, an unknown number of weapons in the hands of barely trained civilians may be more dangerous to the children or responding LEO.

Thoughts? :munchin


S

Bad idea to let most teachers carry guns, IMHO, all it's gonna take is one tightly wound armed teacher to just let loose.... I think it's a bad idea for most civilians to carry, for the same reason.

Absolutely! Only the rich, the well connected, and their approved and certified praetorian guard should be allowed weapons. The common man has no need to defend himself. Weapons are far too dangerous to be allowed in the hands of the general populace.

We need to get a puking smiley.

I think you live in the right part of the country for that thought process. Clearly, the media has you believing that firearms cause crime by themselves.

Frankly, I don't know why anyone other than the police even need a gun, right?:rolleyes:

Do some research. How many million civilians are carrying legally with CCWs right now? How many "tightly wound armed CCW holders just let loose" in the last ten years?

Train and license, then let them carry, but locked up, similar to the FFDOs. Last thing we need is one left in the restroom like some of the highly trained federal agents seem prone to do.

TR

I will probably be in the minority in this but I don't think that more guns in a school zone in the hands of civilians is the answer. In any case I suspect that a lot of teacher's unions wouldn't stand for it. I don't MRS. Reteshka (my 2nd grade teacher in '79) getting into a firefight in a school full of children.

SFC W

Who breaches a hole to "look through"?? The press has to have that wrong... I hope.




I think you are confusing 2 events.

The bad guy ran from a traffic stop. Police chased him, starting a dog track and Deputy Matt Williams and his K-9 were killed and Deputy Douglas Speirs was wounded. The bad guy took one of the officer's gun and ammo and continued on the run... shooting and two other officers while hiding and running.

SWAT caught up with him the next day and killed him.


The pictures I saw showed a dead fall tree about 3-4 feet in diameter supported off the ground at an angle (looked like a giant moss covered lean to). If the bad guy was bunkered down under that solid cover and wouldn't come out and presented a weapon? 9 guy firing 110 rounds. Each of them fires 12 rounds and gets 50% hits firing at a target in the prone under hard cover while getting off line or behind cover and none of them get hit.

Sounds good to me.

The Sheriff needs to keep his mouth shut. Yeah, that was an amusing quip - who doesn't want to fuck with the press after one of your Deputies is killed with 2 contact wounds to the head and the press is only worried about how many times the bad guy was shot? They are getting sued so that wasn't too smart. They probably had more than 12 rounds each so it was un-true... don't make untrue statements about people's death, even if they are scumbags.

I agree with TR, anyone legally allowed to do so should be allowed to carry a concealed firearm. Unfortunately I don't think teachers would ever be allowed to do so. I say give all teachers Tasers, I personally can't stand them, but I think if everytime a student even mentioned a violent act with a weapon or someone was found on the school property that didn't belong there got lit up with 50,000 volts violent crime in schools would drop.

Well if the teacher's union was changed from that feckless NEA to the NRA, that might be a start. Unfortunately too many of the teachers that I have run into are extremely liberal, think that their role in life is to substitute their core values for those of the parent, see parents as the enemy and not as a partner in the education process, expect a medical program for free that will cover them and their families for an entire year even though they actually perform their job for 8-9 months out of a year, have better daily hours than bankers, and have a separate teachers parking lot only to avoid running over the students when they race from the school as the students are filing out to get on their busses. Now before I start getting hate mail, there are some outstanding teachers out there in addition to those professional weapon carrying, patriotic, selfless, defenders of even the liberal teachers in this country but they all wear Green Berets.:D

TR-
You nailed my point exactly - train and license. I should have amended my post to say unrestricted carry - apologies, and I owe you a few, like 20 for being unclear.

I'm trained and qualified in the use of most firearms out there, and if it wasn't such a PITA in this area, I might actually still own a few handguns (still kicking myself for giving up the gold cup 1911, and the Berretta 92SB), I consider them tools, I guess that's an occupational hazard after being an 18B.

I know plenty of "civilians" who have more training and experience with handguns than military and LE personnel. I think your line of thinking is a bit flawed. Statstically it has proven out that more guns = less crime.

That's ok, I don't think most should be allowed to breed either.... but we have to have stupid ones in order for others to shine.... given time the stupid are culled from the herd.... we have over six million car accidents every year, we ain't getting rid of stupid people anytime soon.

Give'em guns and throw them into the fray I say.

There is no way to keep the children safe unless we build prisons for schools.

This also seems to me to be a trade off. If teachers and students can secure themselves in safe rooms, they will be much safer from attackers who are intent on moving from room to room killing as many as possible. But if attackers manage to lock themselves in these secure rooms with hostages, it makes the SWAT/Rescue team's job that much harder. It is one of those cases of protecting as many as possible I suppose.

The Wisconsin Rep who is the latest to propose that teachers carry has referenced success with such policies in Israel, Thailand, and India. Would the result here be same/better/worse?

S

We will all see massive anti-gun propaganda as a result of the recent horrific cases of disturbed people doing horrific acts. One unspoken truth that we will not see on the news is that one reason these wakos think they can get away with this is due to the Gun-Free School Zones Acts curtsey of gun control fanatics who pressured congress and state legislatures to pass them. One never read about school massacres before we began to make guns bad and unavailable to the law abiding citizens..

Which would be better. Keeping our teachers, parents and staff unarmed sheep leaving them to the whim of criminals who will be armed regardless of the laws. Or allowing licensed and trained individuals a means at their disposal to defend themselves and save innocent lives.

-The Tennessean Newspaper Oct 6th 2006
In reference to the recent shooting and as a rebuttal to the "safety zones" created by a zero tolerance of firearms on school grounds wrote this reminder to the non thinking anti gun population.
"Luke Woodham, who shot up Mississippi’s Pearl High School in 1997 after slitting his mother's throat. Midway through his spree, Woodham encountered Vice Principal Joel Myrick, who had rushed to his car to retrieve a .45 caliber pistol. Myrick aimed the gun at Woodham's head and held him until police arrived. You read little about Myrick's heroism, and less about his handgun, in press reports…. After the Pennsylvania attack on an Amish school in Lancaster County, anti-gun Gov. Ed Rendell had a remarkable moment of candor when he admitted that tougher gun law would not have stopped the gunman. . Rendell said: You can make all the changes you want but you can never stop a random act of violence by someone intent on taking his own life.
His remarks were ignored by the media"

I do however disagree with Gov Rendell. True most sheep will not be able to stop random acts of violence as they live in a fantasy world of liberal daydreams of a non violent utopian society where a police officer is there to stop all who stray from the path of politically correct behavior. I for one like a 45 cal center of mass to these criminal’s operating systems. Ill call 911 afterwards....
I want my kids teachers armed and trained as well as School Resource Officers with more tactical training and a rifle in the car.

Sorry to babble but the issue is not guns in the hands of teachers, citizens, police or other law abiding legal residence of my beloved state and country. You do not have to be a graduate of a multi acronym school or have combat experience to get well qualified to defend yourself and others with handgun in public. I make my living teaching these civilians (military & L.E. Also) self defense and I am confident they can stop these type of mad men if they are allowed to be armed.