Why was the 5th Moved?
 

I've tried searching QP and Google but can't find anything on this. My questions is, why was 5th Group moved to Campbell in 1988? Then two years later 3rd Group was re-activated at Bragg. Why wasn't 3rd Group just activated at Campbell?

I was just wondering. Thanks!

5th group move to Campbell
 

Hi Tony,
Thats a great question. I was there with the 5th up till about three years before the move. The rumor mill at that time had it that they wanted the 5th to work more with the 160th and that the 7th was going to be pulling back its Panama FOB onto Bragg.
Anyway, hopefully somebody has the staright story.
thanks
Chet

Nobody has it.
 

Nobody has the straight story. But there are a bunch of pieces of stories floating around that anybody can make into just about any story they want.

By the mid-80s 5th Group was spending a bunch of time at Ft Bliss. Even had 5th Group Forward there. 5th Gp (FWD) had all the modified vehicles and were the base instructors when the battalions rotated through for their yearly training.

The world on the street was "We were going". In our off time we were cruising around town checking the neighborhoods, homes, prices, etc.

A few problems with Bliss were ranges. TRADOC covered most of Bliss and the rocket guys had White Sands. Any of the long range vehicle movements took a ton of coordination.

5th Group was working with aviation but mostly stuff like CH-47s, heavy lift, long range. Little birds were fun to play with but hard to sling a jeep under them.

Then BANG, one day, It's not Bliss it's Campbell and 3rd Battalion is staying at Bragg to become 1st of the 3rd.

Only the Army can do stuff like that.:D

Pete

We moved in 1986 not 88, I was one of the first to arrive at Ft Campbell.

I heard it was a very "political" move to say the least. If you find out why we moved I'd sure like to know......;) (then again any place away from Fayettenam was a good place in those days.)

We got tired of them moping around Bragg looking like somebody kicked their dog, so we kicked them off.:p

Plus, we already had all their Gore-Tex...:lifter

Holy Crap!!!!!! You guys were issued Goretex? I didn't find that until I was out. Got the 'first generation' stuff. Worked great for a few years, then became 'plugged up'. For the seams you had to buy and apply a Goretex seam sealer. The Second generation GT had all the seams taped.

I remember when 1/10th was issued one of the first generations of Goretex, it was either 1983 or 1984. They were ordered to wear it strictly in the field and not in garrison. IIRC the order was an attempt to prevent jealously amongst the legs or at least that was the ostensible reason provided.

12B-
At Devens in 84, we had all the cool Gore-Tex (light and heavy), G-T boots, Eco-tats, ponchos, polypro(2 full systems - light and heavy) - all courtesy of Natick - and they let us wear it whenver we wanted, all the legs were MI students, support, medical or ARNG units.:munchin

Guys,

I asked a friend who was pretty much involved in the move at that time. You would have thought that a move to Bliss would have made much more sense because of the B-500 ops going on out there at the time. Even we in the 7th used to use that area for our desert training--basing out of Oro Grande and training between there and Cloudcroft in NM...which has a LOT of desert before you ever reach the mountains of the Lincoln National Forest area.

Anyway, according to my friend, everyone thought the move was coming to Fort Bliss...but they obviously didn’t have the vision and foresight of the CSA (GEN Wickham).

Several staff studies were done for the CSA and they all came back with the western US as the location to move 5th SFG. On each one, he told them that was the wrong answer. When one finally came in that said Campbell, he took it.

The rest of the story is that the CSA had supposedly promised the communities of Clarksville/Hopkinsville a “brigade-sized unit” and there were houses going up all over the place in preparation for it. However, when the 1500 or so 5th SFG ffolkes showed up versus a typical brigade of nearly three times that number, the most common question in the community was “where is everybody else?” They had gotten an O6-level unit as promised--but not the numbers of troops in an Infantry brigade, which is what the communities were expecting. It was quite a let-down for them.

Anyway, that’s the story as I heard it and has been generally passed down through the ages of ARSFC…

Richard

PS-Old Coe Lake DZ near White Sands was not a soft landing, either.

It was 1983. I stll have my GT boots! ;)

Why was the 5th Moved?
 

Several staff studies were done for the CSA, who was GEN Wickham then. They all came back with the western US as the location to move 5th SFG. On each one, he told them that was the wrong answer. When one finally came in that said Campbell, he took it.
The rest of the story is that Wickham had supposedly promised the communities of Clarksville/Hopkinsville a "brigade-sized unit."
They got an O6-level unit, but not the numbers of troops in an infantry brigade, which is what the communities were expecting. It was quite a let-down for them.

BMT

Still got mine too - the brown, JB looking ones, with the soles that have as much traction as ice when they're wet. On another thread we talked about the unkillable Chips....

Damn straight x_..... in a few days, I'll have access to a digital camera. Not that I know how to use it or anything. Still, it is a pretty good one. We'll have to go back to the old thread/s concerning the Chips and post some pics. :)

One more thing. I have nooooooo clue what GT boots are. After that description. I am ok with that.

OK. Got it. GT boots were Gore Tex. I bought a pair in 1981. Still have them. It's the deal between the first generation and second of Gore Tex. I still have the first generation. There were huge improvements made. I just poked around on Google, searching the GT site, looking for some dates and history. Either, I skimmed it too fast or what I was looking for wasn't there. In any case. I bought my set of GT rain gear in the mid 70's. Seems to me by the early to mid 80's is when the second generation came out and was much better. THAT is what you all got. :mad: I had to be constantly soaked when I was in. LOL

The "Real" reason
 

Okay guys. You all fail poli sci 101 or "How sxxx really takes place in the USA". There was one reason for the move and the same reason that Ft Campbell will never close.

The reason..drum roll, please; FOUR(4) Senators!!

I have a gortex jacket we were issued in the late 70's at Devens issued to our team by Natick. Not military looking at all more of a forest green and pretty light weight, but we wore the hell out of them under our tops.

SGM- you mean the 'green bean' don't you? All the FSTIII guys wore the hell out of them, funny though, theirs never had any little burn holes or burr cuts in them, and always looked so clean... They still issued them in '84, and 6 months later we got the 'new' camo lightweights that had that nasty slick finish on them.

Don't remember it being called that but that's a better color description. Still have and wear mine.

We were issued those light weight green jackets in Tolz. We also worn them under our OG 107s. They were handy in the Spring to help shed the rains.

Mine is now far too small to wear now.

I presume you mean two from TN and two from KY?

FARTHER!!!
 

Try complying with our simple request and make your belated FIRST POST here: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...=13758&page=10

You did fill in your profile, but you missed step #2!!

Later
Martin

Yes
 

You pass!

Green Gortex
 

I was on the Strat Recon committee and we were issued the lightweight green Gortex and brown Gortex boots in 1984.

Most of the story is correct.
5th was slated to move to Bliss.
Gen Wickham, as the CoS, wanted another unit so Campbell would survive a base closing commission.
SF resisted this move to Campbell as Bliss is similar to the aor and we were really getting serious (finally) about desert warfare.
Wickham raised the anty and said he would approve the 18 series enlisted MOS/officers branch on the condition 5th moved to Cambell.
ERGO 5th at Cambell and we have our own branch.
Still friggin criminal in my opinion.

Ft. Campbell / 5th Group
 

As in most major decisions, there were a number of factors:

1 - Yes, Ft. Campbell sits like a CH-47 Chinook on the state line between Kentucky and Tennessee. See map. That means two state's worth of Senators and Representatives.

2 - Ft. Campbell was the home of the 160th SOAR, newly designated as such from the former "Task Force 160," and would be working with them not only for operations, but also for development of doctrine and procedures.

3 - It is easier to take a complete, well established SF Group with full TO & E and move them to Ft. Campbell. That maintains unit integrity, and puts them in an immediately deployable mode as soon as they are wheels down. Standing up 3rd SF Group at Ft. Campbell would be far from the Ft. Bragg / JFK Center flagpole, and with the pipeline (personnel and logistics) and school house far away. Better to stand up a new group in the shadow of the schoolhouse and have the personnel and assets expertise to spin them up to C1 quickly.

4 - Whether or not "becoming a branch" factored into the mix, I don't know. I know SF as a separate branch was being seriously discussed as early as 1982, so it seems a long time to have had any effect on a base change in 1986.

5 - Ft. Campbell does have a tradition of airborne operations, dating back to the gliders, and airborne of the 101st Airborne Division. It has at least nine drop zones not being used for much since the 101st went leg in the 1970's.

6 - There are plenty of Uwarrie type off post training areas, including Land Between the Lakes just off the western end of the reservation.

The "up the ante" rings pretty true.
I was at SWC when the 18 series Officer's Branch was being briefed to anyone who would listen or, in some cases probably didn't make it to the door before BG Guest or Col Potter (I think then MAJ Shaw was pretty active in this issue) locked it. I heard in the hallway that it would be hard to overcome VCSA LTG Thurman's objection, "Special Forces as a Force Multiplier already works, so you don't have that argument. No one is going to approve a new Officer Branch to ensure a few officers have a Professional Growth path.":boohoo
No one, apparently, unless he was the CSA and wanted to make Ft Campbell, happy.:cool: Bet GEN Wickham is a Kentucky Colonel!:D

"5 - Ft. Campbell does have a tradition of airborne operations, dating back to the gliders, and airborne of the 101st Airborne Division. It has at least nine drop zones not being used for much since the 101st went leg in the 1970's."


The 101st became LEG in 1968... I was at the "A" company NCO Club at Bien Hoa when LTG Zais' (CG 101 AB) jeep passed. All of the SF NCOs came to attention and saluted but didn't render the customery "All The Way, Sir".

General Zais looked pained and said, "All The Way, Gentlemen", To which the NCOs replied, AIR MOBILE? General"!

The next week, the 101 was redesignated 101 Airborne (Air Mobile) thanks to General Westmoreland.

101st Drop Zones in use unti mid-1970's
 

OK, let's not get too far off-topic, but ...

http://www.lzsally.com/sally2/archiv...irborne_di.htm

And an authorative rendering of the 101st Airborne Division immediately post Viet Nam (the author is brilliant soldier, an excellent author, strong, handsome, good in bed, and is kind to small animals):

http://airassault.bizhosting.com/PostRVN.htm


Anyway ...

the 101st was 1/3 Airborne and "on status" until 1974. I was on that last mass tactical jump, but unlike many others, I did not steal my T-10 reserve nor cut a scarf from my canopy, since, as a Pathfinder, I stayed on status after the rest of the Division went leg.

Anyone we know?:D

I'm a little concerned that "good in bed" and "kind to small animals" was mentioned so closely together. :D

TARGET!
CEASE FIRE.
Driver, move out.

Oh now that is funny!

In addition to what Pat said;
There was some rumor when we were moving that Wickham had planned on putting the new 3rd Ranger Bn at Campbell but because 1st SOCOM stationed them at Benning instead, Wickham directed Sudeth to find him a unit to put at Campbell.

Once we got to Campbell, the cable guy came to put cable drops in the team rooms. Since we had knocked down walls to make the team room area big enough, what used to be three rooms was now one. The cable guy was putting a drop in each space there used to be a seperate room. When we asked why he was doing this he said the contract was to put cable in each of the rooms in the RANGER battalion barracks.

Bill

Another instance of our visionary planners and well-spent tax dollars at work. :rolleyes:

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Wickam Reward to Ft Campbell
 

I was part of the move to Ft Campbell in '88.

Was intel support guy for 3d bn '86-'88 (with 5th Group MI Company), and we understood that we would eventually go to Ft Bliss, TX. At the time A-1-5 was there and ran the Group's Desert Training Program (DTP) out of Donna Anna Range Camp.

1st Bn was moved to Ft Campbell, however I don't recall when nor why.

As summer of '88 approached we got word that 5th Group was relocating to Ft Campbell. 3d Bn was to remain at Ft Bragg, and would later become 1st bn/3d Group. I was one of four intel analysts who supported 3d bn ... was one of two who was single at the time. The two married guys got to stay at Ft Bragg.

Nobody was particularly happy about the move. Didn't make any sense to move us from one wooded post to another, when we still had to ship our vehicles westto the desert for training.

Word later was that GEN Wickham, before retiring, had promised Ft Campbell and surrounding community a brigade-sized unit.

Ft Campbell later grew on me, and I ended up raising my family and retiring here

You sure about A-1-5? That was my company.....

I was one of the first 5 guys on the ground at Ft. Campbell, 1986.....

Thought it was A-1-5
 

My memory is fuzzy, as I get older ... I thought at the time that A-1-5 was out there. I may be mistaken. We did have guys out there, though. I do recall that during one of our DTP trips (I think in '89), 5th Group ran a display for one of the post special events.

Might have been an A-Team.... we were pretty much stood down until families moved, houses were purchased, kids placed in school, etc etc etc

I was single and sat on my arse waiting to go back to work and dodging every flipping lawn mowing detail I could....

Didn't Want to Move
 

I really didn't want to move to Ft Campbell. I was single at the time and loved being at Ft Bragg ... was close to home (Virginia) and to the beach.

It was my understanding that 5th Group had been offered Clarksville Base - nice area and isolated - but that it was turned down. Not sure why, but the rumor at the time was that some of the 'powers that be' wanted 5th Group to be seen.

It pissed us off that we had to take part in 101st Abn Div parades and change of command ceremonies, and post runs. Were you part of that 101st change of command (where we were the last unit in formation ... next to the post dentists) where we stood in formation during that massive thunder storm? The one where we had to "pass in review" and march through the resulting foot of mud before the post reviewing stand? That was fun.

101st tried to impose 'blue book' rules on 5th Group ... How to set up LBE (2 ammo puches, 2 canteens, no 550-cord), until COL Bowra put a stop to it.

The memories ..

Memories in DEED! Well. . . I never had to march in the parade -- for one of two reasons (1) when we marched to the parade ground I seemed to bounce when the SGM looked my way . . . But I did always get to / have to watch from the bleachers. The parade I remember, we were last in the order of march, that is true. But it was a nice touch that the Division Band switched to The Ballad as we "piss in your shoe". LTC Shaw was leading as the Deputy Group Commander.

I thought is was because of all the deployments 7th SFG was doing in Central America. There wasn't any Per diem left for 5th SFG to buy MRE'S for the Desert:D