Vertical Grips
 

I was discussing this with TS over the weekend and thought I'd start a thread.

Is using a forward vertical grip on a rifle ergonomically superior to supporting the barrel with an upward palm? TS pointed out that when you turn your wrist sideways to grip a vertical grip, you are changing the muscles you are using to support the weight of the front of the weapon -- more forearm and less bicep, I think. Biceps generally are stronger than forearms, so are you creating more work for yourself (and possibly sacrificing some accuracy and wasting energy) by using a vertical grip?

What do you think? :munchin

I was trained without them and now I use them. What TS says is right, but I don't grip it hard enough to make a difference between the forearm and bicep (the rifle weighs about 8 pounds - a gurl could hold it). With training you get used to it.

Since I have started using them, I have grown to love them.

They do get in the way of prone and supported at times.

I run mine as far foward as I can. I have arms like an ape.

You can really crank that barrel around in a vicious arc with a VFG too - if the need should every arise to adjust the attitude of someone the ROE don't allow shooting.

I would advise you to get one and give both ways an honest try and see which you like better.

Thanks. I have one now -- pictures here:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...&postcount=310

Learn to wear gloves yet?:munchin

You have to remember what the tool was designed for, and use it appropriately. They also add a little weight, and you can overload yourself.

I like them for the work I do. others may not.

And the end of the day, it's your bullet launcher.

Not yet. But I am the acorn that becomes the oak! :)

You will need to with a grip that aggressive. I am using SWMS now. A little expensive, but very, very nice gloves.

Which ones?

http://www.southwestmotorsports.com/products.htm

I am using the Maxgrip NTs. Mostly because of the bangs. Probably more than you need.

Thanks, NDD.

No problem.

I notice that the standing position that is being taught to day is different than what I learned.

We were taught that one should be able to shoot a rifle one handed. That was the foundation of forming a solid shooting platform. The right elbow would be up and the arm pulling the rifle into the shoulder.

I noticed now elbows are down.

The left arm supported the rifle, The upper arm would be snug against the chest, Hand palm up supported the rifle under the mag. We were told having the arm extended was not as stable.

Obviously a fore grip would not be used in this situation. I was trained on the M14. This technique seem to work well with the M16.

Is the new style because of the M4 physical characteristics are that much different?

I like vertical foreend grips for CQB rifles.

SWMS is owned by Camelbak now.

TR

The elbows are down because we got tired of bashing them into doorways.;)

I think the rest of it can be attributed to different mission and environment. The other 7 are still the same.

Personally, I've never liked vertical foregrips. I got out just after my unit switched from the M16A2 to the M4, with all it's attachments, so didn't really have an opportunity to use them in training. I never wanted them on my personal AR-15-type rifles either. They just aren't comfortable.

Two groups of thought on that, I was tought, that you want the vertical foregrips as far back as possible, so you get a more supported platform to shoot from. But I have heard that some other units are teaching to have them all the way foreward, so you can acquire targets faster.

I don't have long hands, so keeping it close works for me. Now if I had a 10 inch barrel I might push it out a little.

While the forearm is supporting some of the weight of the weapon's barrel/foregrip/attachments, by pulling slightly rearward you're also using your lats and rear delts, which helps prevent fatigue.

I'd tend to agree with this train of thought.

I've found it difficult to "index" from tgt to tgt while using a V-grip. It's much smoother/faster when just the palm of the support hand is under the upper receiver.

TS

I'm no big-time door kicker, but I did give the fore grip a serious trial in OIF 1. Started out with a full size M4A1 with an ACOG and vgrip and in the end carried an 11" M4A1 with just a trijicon reflex on it. Nothing else. Perhaps I just couldn't get past the "strangeness" of the foregrip, despite having putzed for a few years with an M1A on an M14E2 stock having the foregrip. Having the clean forestock just makes for better hands-on control, it seems.

This is the category I operate the most in. Very seldom can we shoot someone so for me the VFG turns the barrel into a hell of an impact weapon. I'm currently trying one out. I have not yet decided if I like it or not.

B 2/75:

Joe tends to pull the barrel down when using a 'gangsta-grip'. Most of the guys we dealt with who started out any course with one soon took it off. Damn things would come loose and cause a bunch of problems getting hung up on gear and etc. Looks cool though.

Paid a visit to 2/75 last week to talk with the BC for a minute.

Gene

disclaimer: civilian shooter here.

i've started to use a vertical grip with the hold shown below, instead of wrapping my whole hand around the grip like i did when i first started using it. the hand supports the forend but allows you to pull back on it at the same time. the thumb forward is just like the support hand thumb-forward when shooting a pistol - pointing at the target to help indexing.

As a general thing I do not use one, the exception is where a light, peq2, etc. is taking all the space up. Weapon setup is an individual thing, with the mission driving the gear. Having said that, you will have more control, and therefore better able to "drive" the gun gripping as far forward as possible. Think of sweeping with a broom. You dont sweep with your hands close together, you get them all the way down on the handle. For pure shooting speed, you will shoot faster without one. If you must use one, put it as far out on the rail as possible, with your thumb on the weak side pointing forward and your hand pulling straight back. YMMV.

MM,

Although I am happy to see that you are using "thumbs forward" on your assault rifle, I am discouraged to see your light location to support that grip.

It is a common error for shooters that switch to thumbs forward to keep their light in the same place that it was when they used to "choke the chicken".

If you have to make major changes to your shooting position to use your gadgets then it jacks up your muscle memory.

I would recommend that a left handed shooter using a push button, locate their light in the 3, 4, or 5 oclock position.

Good to see you on here brother!

basic,
thanks for the good advice, as always. that's an older pic - i switched the lights to the 3 o'clock position after adopting the thumb forward hold and discovering what you predicted: it wasn't a good idea to switch holds to activate the light.
also ditched all tape switches on the vertical and offset adapters.
thanks for taking the time to point it out - it's much appreciated.

Why?

The only reason IMO to have a vertical grip is it provides a good place for a tape switch.

TS

TS,

Many shooters are dumping tape switches on lights for push buttons, especially if the tape switch is the only way to turn the light on. Tape switches are not as reliable as buttons as a general rule. There is also the factor of white light AD's and the need to turn the light to constant on.

I use a surefire classic 6V tac light with a push button cap. If I get into a deliberate clearing phase I can go constant on which allows me to run the rifle with one hand while I open foot lockers, over turn furnature, or whatever.

I had to clear the back of a military truck (5-ton) once when I was still running a tape switch and when I grabbed the tail gate to steady myself while standing on my buddy's back I could not keep my light turned on.

I agree that VFG's are great for securing tape switches but I only run my laser switch on them now (and I carry an extra laser switch in my arm pocket).

The problem with button lights is that they are normally offset to the left or right of bore and I prefer to keep my "under gun light" under my gun. I have a front grip that actually houses my light and the button protrudes out of the back end of the grip. my light and grip do not fight for 6 Oclock rail space and my light stays under my rifle to minimize shadows thrown by my barrel/rail blocking my light.

Here is a pic of an old M-4A1 set up that I was running several years ago. I run the same grip on my assault rifle now.

TS, basicload answered it better than i could. basically, i didn't find tape switch activation very positive when mounted on the vert grip - sometimes i'd activate it when i didn't want to, and sometimes it wouldn't come on exactly when i wanted it to. i found thumb activation with offset mount, or now at 3 o'clock with the thumb-forward (i'm a lefty) more positive as i was using only the thumb to control the switch on the light, instead of the whole hand. my grip pressure on the vertical remains more constant/consistent. also, with the momentary/click on tailcaps like the SF Scout, you can have constant on if needed, as basicload pointed out.

edited to add: just wanted to reiterate that i'm a civvie shooter for those who don't know me. what works best for me for shooting as a hobby/fun may have no merit in the military world, but just in the offchance it might, i share my limited experience here.

Hayzus MM, stop apologizing!;)

Now that you guys mention it I'm starting to realize the same issue with my tape switch, I just thought I was either man handling the VFG or being to much of a sissy with it.

Son-of-a-bitch, now I'm going to have to jack with my rifle somemore. Why is it that everytime I think I have a good configuration worked out you guys post some insight and I have to rework my for end to make it better Oh well beats reading my general orders of SOP's I guess I'll have to go fiddle with my rifle somemore. :cool:

Why not just run the M900 vertical weapons light?

TR

Reaper,

I tested the 900A for my former unit and I was not that impressed. Sure Fire built that light to fill a SOF requirement for that capability.

The 900 was a large light, but it had several nice features. It is 9V so it is rather bright. Brighter than my light. The LED lights (navigation lights if you talk to a SEAL, breacher's light if you talk to an Army SOF guy) are a nice feature as well.

I did not like the size. The light took up a lot of rail space and interfered with prone sling supported fire. The housing was plastic and I snapped off the grip while muzzle striking. The tape switch embedded in the grip is right where I like my laser switch. I also considered it very sensitive and AD'd the light often while evaluating it.

In the end I did not care for the light as much as this arms room manufactued mount that I run. Its not a bad light though. I wish that the construction was more durable.

Sorry for the slow response.

I run vertical grips on all my teams AR’s. For CQB they improve control over the weapon and speed of movement of the weapon. However, I have found that using a VG for precision shooting at distance while standing or kneeling is not as stable as lightly gripping the forend and keeping the palm pointed up. Less muscle on the gun equals less movement, but equates to less recoil control. It’s a trade off. How I shoot will depend on the shot required. For CQB I want to hit fast and shoot multiple rounds so I use the VG. For distance I move the support hand forward and rest the rifle on the palm. Both techniques have pros and cons. Proficiency with both and the knowledge to know when to use them will make you a better all around shooter.

I’ll add that when using a VG I run the support hand thumb forward. I am right handed so this means the support thumb is on the left side of the weapon.

When I carried a "normal" M4, I would have one.

I would typically put the taclight's pressure pad (issued surefire) inbetween rails on the left side of the rifle, use high temp zipties to hold it on. That precluded the whole visible light AD thing to a good extent. If I had one, I'd put a scope cover on it as well to prevent it more... 9 times out of 10 we weren't visible light, so I had other things to take care of that..

I'd use the button pressure switch vs the pad, thinned and rounded with a dremel, then bike innertube to hold it in place on the front grip so I could "pull the trigger" on the front and get what I wanted.

Then, when I went to play in stryker land, the TL's carried the 203's. Yay. Back to magwell front grip with pad's epoxyed to the trigger mechanism of the 203. Taclight was rear button on the left hand side for ease of thumb actuation.

My carbine I have now sitting upstairs has a surefire TL3, mounted underneath the barrel, to where my left index finger's knuckle can actuate it. The mount is sexy though. Basically, it's a easily detatched light off a mount that stays on the rifle. Good for the "where the heck did that go" when I don't have a light easily accessable.

It's mounted pretty far back, because that's where I prefer to keep my front grip, and allows me to still assume a "normal" prone position if I want.

I *do* wish that I had been able to get a front grip like I have on my carbine, back when I was still in. Just being able to keep spare batteries in it, plus the option of mounting pressure pad's in the sides would have been something I would have appreciated.

Pic here

Where the hell have you been?

here and there... more in pm...

That does not appear to be any SureFire I have ever seen.

The knuckle activation is very difficult under pressure (one finger moving forward as the other hand is moving in the opposite direction on the fire controls), you must have spent a lot of time working with it to master that technique.

TR

The eagle eye catches all!

My bad. Streamlight TL-3. "Thunder Ranch" model, cheapest off the shelf option that incorporated both a light and rail mount all in one.

I indexed it close enough to where it's more of a torquing of the grip without much of a push to activate. Works good for my purposes, still debating about a pressure pad for it. Installing one would negate the ease of removal for other than weapon mounted use.

Of course, purchasing a seperate light would solve that issue... Usually I just go for the Streamlight XTKP rechargable I keep in the blazer, or then there's the "God Light" my 15 millon candlepower spot I have for testing morse code against the martians... :)

I believe that the majority of IR tip off covers that are purchased are used to prevent white light NDs. The downside is that they are expensive.

The budget solution is to use a Butler Creek tip off scope cap. Some people punch a pinhole in the center to permit its use at a much reduced level for a breacher's or navigation light.

LaRue makes a nice QD light mount that drops the light to make thumb activation at the 4:00 and 8:00 position easier.

TR

yep, the butler creek caps work great. At least until something has the good fortune pre-mission to melt a hole straight through it by turning it on.

Bad side effect of vertical frontgrip pressure switches.. LOL