Shooting dogs......
 

A few thoughts concerning dogs….

Shooting dogs is not the same as shooting humans.

Most humans would not be considered “little bundles of energy”. On the contrary, most Americans are fat and lethargic hence the weapons, ammunition and training are designed to stop humans not dogs.

How many departments actually train to shoot dogs? Shooting a moving target, at full value, can be difficult, shooting a pissed off and motivated dog is even tougher. Using a pistol for this purpose, when there are other weapon choices is unintelligent.

A pistol should not be a first choice. But then again, why would anyone use a pistol as primary on a normal breech. A shotgun would be my choice with an ounce and a half of # 6 shot. It works on doors, humans and it will work on dogs without over penetration. (unless there were someone holding hostages in close proximity.)

Tasers were designed for use against humans. (see “fat and lethargic”) Again the argument for the proper weapon, ammunition and training apply. Tasers might work, until they don’t. You get one shot, good luck.

Logic loop question, given a drooling 170lb Doberman (and bad guy/guys) behind a door that must be breeched and the following choices, taser, service pistol, M-4, or a shotgun which would most pick to have in their hands at the time of breech?

Encountering a dog should not be a surprise had someone done their recon properly. A swat team that has planned a deliberate assault should not be surprised by a dog.

If you’re not an LEO or military “combat arms” feel free to keep your opinions to yourself. Everyone else lets hear it!

Team Sergeant

Low Moving Target
 

I'd say it is a "SWAT SHOT" that is not generally trained for. I say this only because it seems that most "missed" shots are during an entry or stressful situation. LEOs seem to do just fine outside one on one.

Most train for the vertical area 4-6 foot shot at what range, 6-15 feet?

Kick in a door and you have a 2 1/2 foot high target rapidly closing.

As you stated, a dog should not suprise an entry team. Recon, past knowledge, even the county dog license can be a source.

A barking dog target? I can see it now. On about 10% of the entries you have a barking target critter "running" to the door. Make it out of that foam that they use for the deer targets.

Pete

If recon was done... If possible food w/ tranqulizer prior to entry, next Flash Bang unless it is a Meth Lab, Enter w/ shotgun

I was kinda steering this toward local, state and federal LEO's..... I'm thinking (and hoping) they don't normally use WP during entries......;)

Forget druggin the pooch, we're talking weapons choices.

Flashbang, great, Lets say the dogs deaf from birth and blind in the eye on the side you threw the flashbang from a car accident.... now what hero?:rolleyes:

Le Mas AP handgun or rifle duty ammunition seems to provide the best solution. Impacts to rear appendages or thoracic cavity provide immediate immobilization without over penetration. Impacts to the head and neck areas cause immediate death again without over penetration. No dedicated weapon systems or designated entry personnel are required. Responding officer or any entry team member can equally address either the canine threat or armored bad guy without increasing over penetration liability to friendly personnel or urban constructions.

I know of no Department that officially trains to shoot dogs as it would then be concidered a "non exigent circumstance", and be ten years in the policy making / training vicarious liability black hole with a final memorandum ordering all officers to utilize the civilian "dog negotiator" hired at $103,000.00 per year.

Remember the primary objective is to move and clear the property with as much speed and violence of action as necessary, hence the bad guys are the primary threat, with a cooking lab, booby-traps, ... and attack dogs way down on the list. I don't care if you have kryptonite rounds in a rifle or handgun, if your loading a specific round for non-penetration or dog killin' your not my lead in any more. Guys who go in looking for the dog are not focused on the threat that can kill your team. With the exception of NDDs trained dingos I have never even heard of a gun shootin' / knife weilding pup. We took the best, close in, man killing round available via our Department and modified its use to take out a SECONDARY threat. I'm going with TS on this one - use the shotgun, move to clear, shoot danger close as needed the canine threat while continuing to scan for primary threats to your team.

And heres a little story.

Ran into this problem years ago when a certain groups of Dominicans and Jamacians would buy trained Rottweilers (for 5 to 7 thousand) to guard their stash houses. The narcotics guys were scared to death when making their buys for warrants. Since we were operating in a very metro environment we changed up to have the first guy in use 00 buck. Problem was you had to clear, & advance and still pay attention for these "lions" who made very little sound. So the first in usually became the meat and moved to target. We hit one of their bigger houses for our narcotics team - I was lead in when I saw the Rottie heading in from a straight thru kitchen area. The dog was on me in just about three leaps and even though I saw him (or her) it never made a GD sound. Hit it about 18 inches away and took the entire left side of its head off - I mean teeth, eye , ear et al. The dog spun around and sat there attempting to lick its face with what was left of its tongue. Later our Humane Services took the dog to a good vet hospital who put it down. It was then that I learned about these amazing animals and how they were bred by the Romans etc.

Several teams that year hit these same sold attack dogs with 00 buck - all were stopped or killed with one shot. The only people who took a hit were those narc guys/gals who did warrants without us. All were using handguns or short carbines - some with "special ammo". just my .02

Weapon Of Choice. Rem 870....00Buck
 

TS,
Most LE entry teams carry a mixed bag of weapons and are configured for the job at hand taking into consideration the time of day, the bad guys history and the building/room to be taken down and a few other factors. Also most teams carry less lethal options as well including bean bag rds, pepper ball rds and the Taser option. For a routine warrant service we use the MP5 and our duty pistol S&W Tactical (40cal)...we also put one shot gun(REM 870) towards the front of the stack...usually in direct support of the ram officer behind the shield officer. In the case of a dog the very last weapon I want is a pistol or mp5. Stopping power just is not there and shooting a moving target that is trying to bite you in the balls is at best difficult. If intell indiacates a dog, having the shield maybe key in buying a second or two to get a good well aimed 00 buck shell into the dog.. this will settle the matter instantly. I have been in several dog shootings and these tactics have proven reliable and effective. This is not to say its best as there are about a half dozen ways to skin this cat. Just my experience and opinion. The non-Swat officer on a ..say domestic call.. does not have the benefit of weapons choices. At best he'll have a pistol and maybe a Taser....he will generally have a trip to the ER in his future.

I was at a several SWAT training courses in the past 4 months or so. Dogs guarding Meth labs was a BIG topic.

Evidently some Police Chiefs/ Sheriffs take a dim view of "delibrate dog killing". Sounded like more a politcal thing, as the dogs have to be put down after the arrests anyway.

The general conclusion was a shotgun loaded with buckshot was the best remedy for an attack dog.

My hat is off to the LEOs that have to deal them.

m4/203
 

I have yet to try them but I have just got some multiple projectile rounds for my 203/m4. Word from the guys in our adjacent Bn is that they just about cut a dog in half at ten feet. I know there is still is the problem of the transition but if you fire the 203(for a righty) with your left hand and keep your right hand on the pistol grip of the m4...

Excellent post TS.

APLP, the problem with any ammo is you have to hit the target in the KZ. AS Pete said, small and moving fast in a high stress situation. If you don't train the shoot that type of target, you probably won't hit it.

Now look at the diagram of canine anatomy. You need to be behind or under for the optimum shot. Not going to happen in this scenario.

I was thinking about the shotgun as well, I agree it would be a much better choice if one is going to shoot.

I don't think drugs are the answer - they take too long to act. Even 5 seconds in this scenario is an eternity.

If you're a little lucky, the dog will be barking at the door when the charge goes off. But you can't rely on luck. I've seen the bomb blanket thing used - it worked very well the one time I saw it. Problem is now you have a member of the team tied up and probably laying on the floor for the duration.

Indeed an excellent topic.

I too would go the shotgun route, however i would load "Brenneke" or more modern rifled "Foster" slugs. Not certain of all the specs, i recall however that these are solid slugs and IMO would be far more effective at penetration and creating a would channel than buckshot on a muscular canine. From close range may even stop the pooch regardeless of KZ. Regarding over penetration, that's a tough one, but as far as i know a non-issue with shotguns due to lower muzzle velocity regardless of round. Anyone care to qulify or disqualify this as i'm not 100% certain?

As for the KZ of the canine, spot on NDD, difficult one, especially with more muscular breeds like Rotties, Pit Bulls etc.

I recall a story, urban legend if you will from about 13 years back regarding a Pit Bull hit multiple times with a .38 and just kept going, didn't even slow down.

Bottom line, dogs aren't people, they are tougher physically and have a better psyche for the fight by instinct. They need to be stopped physically to stop, IOW, disabled not frightened.

Regarding flashbangs, i recently read that this would be dangerous in a meth lab due to explosive or unstable chemicals.

Hoepoe

This one is all in the hands of the breach man lest when flowing into different rooms an unexpected hound is encountered. I think the shotgun would be the best weapon for all the reasons you mentioned TS (penetration & accuracy). Only problem is if you can't chamber that round in time your goose is cooked. Your buddies will probably have to beat the thing to death after that. My SAW would make short work of a dog, but the potential for collateral damage...:eek:

Ok Brenneke has come a long way since i last used a shotgun, this is what i found n their site with regards to a suitable slug:

Tactical Home Defense 12 / 2¾”

Weight: 1 oz.
Barrel: all types
Range: up to 35 yards
Use: Home defense / law enforcement, deer sized game

* Original BRENNEKE Slug “Bronze” with newly developed unique patented B.E.T.-wad
* flat trajectory
* good accuracy
* allows quick, accurate follow up shots if needed
* good knock down power
* controlled penetration / low risk of dangerous exiting
* designed for urban use
* proven for law enforcement
* most comfotable for recoil sensitive shooters

Hoepoe

The M576 Cartridge, 40mm, Multiple Projectile, contains 27 00 Buckshot pellets which deploy in a wide pattern at a relatively slow velocity.

It should work fine up to 10 yards or so, beyond that, I would prefer a 12 gauge shotgun, better yet with a Vang Comp.

I would go with a buck load and avoid the slugs due to the possibility of missing and overpenetration.

The MP5 would be fine with the LeMas, if you could put rounds on him quickly. You hit even a leg, it is gone and he is going to be dragging the remainder of it towards the target.

TR

Tough situation, I'm thinking hit the dog with 00 buckshot if you don't have one shield surf the dog. Basically drill the dog with a shield, pin it to something then, contact shoot it in the head or KZ.

The dog may have some different ideas about this...seems like it would be like trying to grab a greased pig...

Or in your AO, the ever popular, undiscovered TATP lab/safe house. I think that dog was named "shed" (?)

I have seen the shield and light weight bomb blanket both attempted with poor results abeit in training and only against shepards. Big problem is that you have to move down to their level to secure them - that means your face, neck, hands, arms and of course legs, & crotch are now all within range of the dogs teeth. Trying to anticipate the movement of 100 lbs of moving energy attached to teeth with a shield or blanket in your hands usually has resulted in a dropped shield and blanket and the sacrifice of your left forearm while your team mates giggle and the handler sloooowly moves to withdraw.

The other thing I've noticed about these animals is they just refuse to feel sorry for themselves. Hit them with anything other than a shot that takes them out and they will come at you until they die.

Breaching is becoming less and less of an option for some of the bigger metro Departments because even with small hinge, strip charges or IV bags the big problem is doing a shot on a point wherein the dynamics change inside so fast. We have hit crack houses that were "empty" except for the shift working (1 or 2 toads) and 1 hour later there were 5 adults and 8 kids inside. Unless those signing for the warrant have full 360 eyes on the target for the duration of warrant approval, take down/planning meeting & move to target usually they will not sign off on an OK to breach.

Again, this is just my limited experience.

I've had to shoot dogs with handguns. I like dogs and having to shoot them upsets me, especially when they are usually victims too. The fact that NONE of the calibers (a mix of 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP) or rounds I used (mostly JHPs w/a few 9mm FMJs) reliably put the dogs down just adds to the problem. Short of a contact shot straight into the top of the skull, nothing resulted in instant incapacitation. My bottom line - if I have to shoot another dog I want it to be done as humanely as possible. That means quick and clean. Since I'm retired and not an LEO I probably won't be in any situations where I have to worry about using the rest of the ammo on whoever made it necessary for me to shoot the dog in the first place. So - If I have to do it again (and I have the option) I'll be using a shotgun w/#4 buck or #6 shot (probably a turkey load for the added charge weight/power). If it's outdoors I would consider 00 buck. (Yes, I keep a good mix on hand so I can use whatever's appropriate at the time.) To make it as effective as possible I'll be budgetting for a Vang comp. I've seen the results TR got with his and I'm sold on it. My .02 - Peregrino

Shields are for gurls.;)

Pit Bulls
 

It seems that I actually have some experience in the subject of this thread. As a police officer, I have had three occasions to drop pit bulls. I used an M-4 on two of them and a Crown Victoria on one. I have seen dismal performance with the use of handguns on dogs. A shoulder weapon, such as a rifle or shotgun, is the only way to go – unless you can run them over. The .223 ammunition used was never fancy. I used a 55 gr. HP on one and 55 gr. JSP on another and they did what they were supposed to do.

I have not used this drill, but one way to specifically train for shooting attacking dogs is to use a 2 or 3 liter bottle with a long cord tied to the end. Set the bottle on the ground near the backstop and run the cord between or near the shooters feet. One person starts moving away from the shooter, pulling the bottle toward the shooter for him to engage. Safety Note: stop before the bottle gets to the shooter so he doesn’t shoot himself in the foot or turn toward other people on or behind the line.

The bigger issue with LEO’s engaging dogs is that they tend to move with the gun elevated. The habit of Guns Up/Sights Up creates a tunnel vision that floats about 4 feet above the ground. Pit Bulls rarely bark before attacking. In fact, they seem to move to attack from the side or behind to surprise their prey. Operating with the muzzle depressed below the belt opens up a funnel of vision that allows the officer to see the threat faster – dog or human. Once the threat is located and recognized, then it is a simple matter of Sight-Press-Sight-Press until the threat is rendered safe – dog or human.

Flash Bangs have been successful when we’ve had intelligence about the presence of dogs. This has to be a mission planning issue because there is no time to deploy a flash when an ace-eating pit bull is launching for your business. Even when it is planned, your cover element has to be ready to make the shot(s) if/when the flash fails to deter the dog.

Thank you for the oppotunity to share,

Land Shark

Concur with the shotgun but no single TT&P addresses all situations, lots of variables and what if's. Shotguns are not always available to those who suddenly find themselves with the requirement to immobilize a dog.

My point with respect to conventional duty handgun and rifle ammunition is that the probability to immediately incapacitate a dog with a single round is very remote. Any handgun and rifle caliber bullet fired from short platforms designed to penetrate 12-18 inches of ballistic gelatin will create minimal muscle and bone destruction and most likely over penetrate the target.

The Le Mas armor piercing ammo demonstrates greater than 6 inch diameter living tissue permanent wound channels with respect to either appendage or thoracic cavity impacts. It does not matter how long it takes the animal to die after single round impact, it does matter how quickly the animal becomes immobile after being impacted. If a dog’s appendage bones structure, pelvic girdle, or heart and lungs are not functional after a single round impact he will very quickly sit down. Any handgun and rifle duty ammunition that will not create instantaneous death from a head shot is unsat.


- Le Mas AP 9mm CQB appendage impact when fired from the SMG
- Le Mas AP .45acp CQB head impacts

I agree but they are pretty much mandated now days freaking sissy admins don't want meat eaters in my area. :cool:

Not so fast
 

NDD, I have agreed with 99.9% of your posts..you missed a little on this one....shields are for your kids. Warrior-Mentor is correct...it is nearly impossible to pin a dog intent on getting to you with a shield; its a ballistic shield not a doggy shield. Lets not forget theres an ahole in the house that owns the dog too. Best not to over think the situation...00 buck to the front of the dog...then clear the rest of the house.

My kid, or as I like to call him, The Kid, would never use a shield.

Peregrino funny that you should mention turkey loads for dogs. I killed a wild dog this past Tuesday while turkey hunting. Federal Flite Control #6 turkey load . The dog was at 20 yards. Full load to the face, he dropped and never made a sound or moved again.

I don't like shooting dogs either. I was a K9 handler for 6 years. But I will not tolerate being bitten either.

What kind of dog was it?

It was a mixed breed. Weighed about 60 pnds.

I understand perfectly. I spent a fair amount of time in rural areas growing up so I can readilly acknowledge the dangers of feral dogs (I don't like getting bit either). I'm glad it turned out OK. My house gun has #4 in it right now but the wife's 20 ga. stays loaded with Federal #6 turkey loads. 25-30 years ago I was programmed to use #4 buck for dangerous targets at close range. Last year I went to stock up and must have hit a dry spell. I couldn't find any in Fayetteville. I did my homework looking at range, pattern, throw weight, shot size, wounding potential, and recoil management and settled on the turkey loads. To my way of thinking if it can deal with a turkey's armor plated a** at 25-30 yds, it ought to do just fine from the bedroom door to the living room. That and they're really easy to buy this time of the year. :D Peregrino

the couple MP5 SDs that are laying around are tasked specifically for dogs. the inner perimiter team is in charge of that. the assault team doesn't worry about dogs (well, not on paper anyway). If there are known dogs on target property, they are factored into planning either to get shot or just let out to run around.

although, I admit I've never seen a oving target simulator set up with a low to the ground doggie target.

On the plus side, dogs run right at you or directly away from you. they don't duck and weave and don't know how to use cover.

One would think what ever took down that hog would work on any dog.

Pig Slayers: What's your preferred weapon & ammo of choice?

Maybe another thread on pigs? I use to hunt them (javalena) in Az, near Wikiup(SP?). But that was a long time ago.

Javelina are lots of fun to hunt, but you'd better be on your toes! Down in South Texas, I have hunted them successfully with 00 buck, but sometimes their inertia still carries them a bit too close for comfort. :cool:

Hello Everyone,
My first post here, other than my introduction one.

Some really good information on dealing with dogs. As with everyone else here my team has had very poor results shooting dogs with handguns, all that have been hit with handguns rounds ended up having to be finished with a shotgun, we currently use #4 buckshot. We've only had one shot with a rifle, a 5.56, it was a pit bull and it stopped him with one shot. Most of our dog shootings have been done with a shotgun and they have been pretty effective. Although one pit bull was nearly cut in half and he was still coming.

We've used a couple other things to send the dogs away when the didn't need to be killed- a couple times when the dogs were outside we used flashbangs with good success, the dogs tunred and ran and they never came back. But that was outside and they had an escape route, don't know if that would be the same if it was inside. Recently one of the teams had a pit bull that was acting aggressive but not coming at the team. The Less Lethal officer hit him a couple times with a 40mm sponge round, he had lethal coverage there with him, and the dog ran and never bothered the team again.

We haven't shot any dogs with a Taser. We carry it as a less lethal option for humans but we think it would be pretty hard to hit a dog with both probes.

A couple times some of our guys have used OC on the dogs. While it has done a good job of getting rid of the dogs it also contaminated the rest of the team and none of them had their masks on. Needless to say the guys know not to do that anymore.

Just a few thigns we run into,
Brendan

When I was a kid, we didn't shoot the hogs. We caught them live and took them home to fatten them up. Used dogs and roped them off horseback. Kids' job was to get in there amongst 'em and tie them up. Hog tie, as it were. I never enjoyed it very much.

:eek:

Now that will build some character...

:D

Dogs really are amazing. I read a document when I was a LEO about how Police Work Dogs could perform usual activities in a house covered with OC dust (the handler had to wear a gas mask). There was little reaction other than the occasional tearing and red eyes.

Perhaps a direct spray has a little stronger effect, but apparently it's not the best method of deterring a dog.

Check out this link: http://www.nrps.com/canine/article3.asp

I'd hate to get OC all over me and still get bit. Makes an already bad day so much worse.

What about this one (see attachment)? I agree a slug is a good choice, if you have ample time to setup your shot. 00 Buck gives a little better hit probability and creates multiple wound channels. But increased distance creates a misplaced round or pellet with multiple projos (think of kids or other innocents).

I tested the 12 ga Hornady SST slugs at 5, 10 and 25 yards on 1 gallon water jugs. They explode violently and fragment the jug pretty well. Test gun was a Remington 1100 Competition Master.

How this correlates jugs to dogs, the round is designed for deer hunting. Deer hide is a little tougher (OK, alot tougher) than a dogs. The jug is about 10 times tougher than dog skin. The jug lacks elasticity, dog skin is really elastic (more so in bulldogs, pit bulls, and other bull terrier breeds) than others ie. greyhounds, chihuahuas (be afraid, be very afraid).

There is no perfect solution, multiple ones would work. Using ammo that is designed to frag like LeMas would be great to incapacitate and kill a dog. But remember that the ammo you use on the dog is likely to be used on the perp (I have no problem, lawyers may).

OK, so TS has given the deaf, blind dog an opportunity to play (the ACLU would be happy). Slip him a Ruffi-Coloda and monkey-stomp him. OK I have no answer for that except humanely send this dog to the big kennel in the sky. Admit it, he's deaf and blind, he's not a dog anymore. He's an area rug with a pulse, put him out of his misery. :D

Edit to add: This Hornady slug does a number on deer, I think it's a bit overboard, but in the un-gun-friendly state of Maryland it's about all a hunter can use. It really tenderizes the meat in the shoulder and renders a good portion of it unusable because it's too bruised or infused with copper jacketing. Cutting my mouth up eating venison jerky is not my idea of a fun time. I grew up in southern MO, we used noting bigger than the 300 Win Mag. I use a 7mm Rem Mag, I hate chasing them across creation and pulling them out of the briar patch.

I think the advantage of a shot gun is that shot is being used. A slug is no different that a project from a side arm or rifle, Albiet larger.

When I was in a agency we used #5 shot, what was considered best all-a-round load (a compromise). Using shot allows for a greater area of coverage compare to a single shot projectile. Sort of like a gernade, close is close enough. At really close range the other advantage of the shot gun is the blast.

Personally, I think the greatest danger in shooting a dog is the way the "liberal" media would headline the event. "police shoot 10year old girl's puppy" (even though it is a 150# rotti)