The XO and I were sitting on the back porch this morning enjoying the start of a new day. As is her custom, she opened the paper to read and out fell the Parade magazine insert with the picture of Malala Yousafzai captioned "The Face of Courage". Well, that started me thinking about this thread, the demographics of the Muslim world and their beliefs (thanks to 98G), and a Phoenix Program Redux (MR2 is on to something IMO), and the many thoughtful posts of the rest of you here.

Maybe it is young Muslim women that we should target as assets to begin the change? Malala in her view is not unique - she represents the aspirations of most young women of her generation. (98G you might want to verify that from the Pew demographic study.) These are the Muslims we need to support. Their enlightenment with proper support, education, and protection (the darker side of the Phoenix Program comes into play here) would be unstoppable, IMO.

And before my Brothers chastise me for suggesting an army of girls, (I hear the snickering :D) I can tell you from experience of raising two girls, they can be vicious when crossed - like being locked in a closet with a wolverine. :D Exploitable assets? You bet!

And while I'm at it, GR, I can say with almost certainty that Malala would not run away and pout when she was challenged.;)

Maybe there might be an 'in'.....

There is no ambiguity in Islam, Koran. Hadith, Sira or Sharia law as to women's inferiority.
After military conquest Muhammad would give out captured women, in at least one case he asked that they be raped in front of their husbands. They were then the sex slaves/concubines of the new 'owner'...there are 4 Koranic verses that allows that the owner has full sexual rights with his new slave. There are no verses that prohibit rape. (One of the reasons all US female PW's were sexually abused....it is allowed)
The Koran has verses that allow a man to beat his wife...no where does it command him to love her. It states a man 'Is a degree above her' and the Hadith says that they are intellectually inferior and are the majority of hells occupants (because they are weak of will).
A man may divorce his wife at will, if he does this twice and then wishes to remarry she must have sex with another man first (Sharia)...men are exempt from this type of degradation.
Women are not free to marry whom they will as are men...a husband can also marry 3 more wives at his will.
She must be available at all times for sex (as a field ready to be tilled) according to the Koran.
Women do not inherit proportionally to men as they are half of a man.
Her word in court is worth half of that of a man.
If a woman is raped there must be 4 male witnesses or she can be charged with adultery not rape. She can be stoned to death...the male gets lashed.
If an Islamic woman is killed in an accident the blood money is half of that for a man.
If the woman killed is not Islamic it is halved again.
Etc.Etc.....
Islam in Arabic means 'submission' and that submission is twice the load for any female.

Western Females
 

Western Females (NOW types) don't seem to have any problems with any of that - as long as it's not the Southern Baptists....

I have been reading this thread with fascination and appreciate the level of intimate knowledge you all have learned about this religion. I know this thread is not comparing Islam with Christianity, but in pondering the question posed by the OP, I can't help but do so.

In Christianity, free will is paramount, as God wants us to come to him of our own free will and not by force. Islam seems to be a requirement for all believers and non-believers must be forced into it. (I know there are examples in history where this is not the case, but for the past few centuries, Christianity has not been killing non-believers while followers of radical Islam have.)

Christianity follows the Ten Commandments, including "thou shalt not kill", while Islam encourages murder of non-believers and degradation of women.

Our country was founded with the belief that all should have the freedom to worship, or not worship, as they see fit. Radical Islam is not of the same opinion.

In all religions, there are the devout, and the less devout, and the not-so-much. But even the not-so-much devout Christian believes the core principles of Christianity even if they don't always follow them. I am assuming it is the same for Islam. There are also those that pick and choose what they will or won't believe in on both sides, but that is probably not the majority.

So, in theory, if we are not at war with Islam itself, IMO, we should be. And I like the idea of fighting it from within. It seems it would have to be an insidious method to achieve success and chane their way of thinking and the basic fundamentals of their beliefs.

To change "their way of thinking and basic fundamentals of the their beliefs" is an exercise in futility, IMO. You simply cannot change who a person is or any group of people's core beliefs. To fight this battle ("war") from the point of view of Christianity v Islam is a trap and is a no win argument for the reasons that Sigaba and others have pointed out.

The objective (again my opinion) is to find the groups or a demographic that already aspire to personal liberty and reject the subjugation of Islam. The Pew report that 98G references seems to identify possible demographic groups that are aspiring to that. Malala is a case in point and the women under the age of 25 may be the target assets. And the more I think about it, the better I like MR2s idea of a Phoenix Program Redux as a means.

Pete, to your point, I hadn't thought about it, but I don't recall NOW getting their panties in a knot over the subjugation of women under Islam either. Hmmmm!

I don't disagree with anything you said. I was simply contrasting Christianity and Islam. I agree it shouldn't the "war" shouldn't be fought that way. If the Muslims want to be Muslim, I have no wish to talk them out of it. But I do like, as I mentioned, working from the inside, such as using the Malala's in Islam to aide in making a change. Women can influence their children's way of thinking, and if the mindset of the children can be changed, there is hope.

As a woman (raised as Southern Baptist, but not subscribing to all of the beliefs), I have supported the womens' movement (also not subscribing to all of their beliefs) in things such as equal pay for equal work, but have never subscribed to the fact that men and women are equal. Both sexes have different strengths and weaknesses and excel at different things. In things in which we are equal, the business world for example, there should be equality. I am saying this to say that in this regard, I have always supported charities that assist women in this manner, helping them to become more self-sufficient, and in fighting mysogony in their cultures. There are many women's organizations fighting these atrocities, including under age marriage, the rape issues, female circumcision, and other utterly barbaric acts committed in the name of the Islamic religion.

I am not sure how you would go about changing religious beliefs without going after the believers. While we might want islam to go away, I see no sign that we could accomplish that, even if we all agreed on it.

Islam is not only a religion with primitive tenets, but it is also a theocratic political system, and the end requirement is that all non-believers convert, or face the sword.

The largest part of the islamic population is in Asia. At the same time, thus far, they seem to be the least militant. Maybe there is a way to create a schism, but even with that, we are going to have to fight a lot of people who hate us, our religion, our beliefs, and our way of life.

Make no mistake, once the muslims have a nuke, they will be looking for a way to employ it to cause us (the Western world, esp. Israel and the USA) maximum harm. It is allah's will and is undeniable.

Sad, but true.

TR

I think the 10 Commandments did not say t"Thou shalt not kill But Thou shelt not murder. The wording has changed over 2 millia. I could be wrong but this is the way I interpret it, and my way is as good as most clergy.:D

I think you are correct, sir.

Muslims must fight terrorism
 

Muslims must fight terrorism

http://www.arabnews.com/news/466789

"In his article “Gulf between perception and reality of Muslims” (Oct.3), Aijaz Zaka Syed has once again echoed the feelings of all Muslims around the globe who feel bad about the way the entire community is being blamed for the wrongdoings of a few, who in the name of Islam are wreaking havoc around the world and giving a bad name to Islam and Muslims at large.
It is sad to hear and read reports about killings and violence perpetrated by deviant groups who claim to be waging a “holy war.”......."

I post this not so much for the story - but to read the story and then the comments.

Very, very enlightening post, Pete. Especially the comments. A couple of observations - (1) clear polarization of thoughts, (2) astounding ignorance of the tenets of Islam among Muslims, (3) noted the backlash from historical argument Sigaba cautioned about, (4) confirms to me that there are in fact assets to be exploited from within.

Some good intel there Bro, thanks. :lifter

Please pardon the length of this post; but it is what I wrote to answer another Muslim individual elsewhere, who also did not seem too sure of just what his religion was all about. I am hoping that GR may have a look at this. Agree or disagree, it at least gives food for thought and serious study and reflection about what Islam "offers" to its adherents.

Answering Muslims -- my version:


Islam is not the truth! It's the best and longest-running con that Satan ever pulled. Unfortunately, its primary victims are Muslims themselves who will never know the love of a loving God. Jesus Christ did die; and he died for you as well as for me. Don't believe me? Ask, with a sincere heart, for God to show you the truth. He will.

And to those who question how God can be three persons... Well, in order to be able to fully comprehend this we would need to be God, which we are not. It is impossible for us, not for God. It is not within human understanding to be able to explain that mystery completely. That is why Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Son of the Father. Jesus, by His divine nature was/is God; but in His human nature, was less than God. However, Jesus, in His humility, did not see equality with God, the Father, as something to be grasped at (unlike Lucifer/Satan). The closest I've ever heard anyone be able to explain this "Three-in-One" phenomenon is a nun on EWTN: Mother Angelica. The way she explained it was that we - each of us - is one human being; but we each have memory, intellect and will. Those are three separate and distinct parts of each of us; but they are not separate from us.

Jesus Christ is God. (“I and the Father are one.” “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” “Before Abraham was, I AM.”) [“I AM” being the name God told to Moses when Moses asked: “Who shall I say has sent me, Lord?”] No, Jesus was not in the least confused about just who and what He was. God came to us as a human so that His birth, His works, what He said, His death and His resurrection could be recorded in history. He paid the penalty for all the sins of humanity, since we would be unable to do so without suffering eternal death. God is love, but He is also just; and penalty for sin must be paid. God loved us so much that He took that penalty upon Himself so that we could once more be united with Him. Instead of arguing about whether or not Jesus Christ was crucified, we should be down on our knees with tears of humility and gratitude, thanking Him for His love and His sacrifice.

I know that it does not look like strength for God (as Jesus Christ) to die in such a horrible and ignominious manner, but He did. Jesus said that "No one takes my life. I have been given authority to lay down my life, and to take it up again." Therein is Christ's victory over Lucifer/Satan, over sin and over death; and believe me, it pissed Satan off no end. Lucifer/Satan hates God; but his arms are too short to box with God, so his plan was to get back at God by attacking what God loves – His children. That's us. The Almighty and ever-loving God does not want any of us lost to Him; but He gave us (as He gave the angels) free will - to love and serve Him, or to reject Him. Satan wants us - every one of us - to suffer as he does; and to lose the joy of life everlasting with a loving God.


Here are some ways you can tell that the one who Mohammed supposedly was quoting was not God, but Satan:

* Almighty God is the author and architect of life, not death. Pain, death and suffering only came to be because our first parents (Adam and Eve) were seduced by Satan to disobey God. It was Satan who was - and still is - a liar and "…a murderer from the beginning".

* Almighty God is not proud. He humbled Himself to become one of us in every way but sin; and died a horrible and shameful (in the eyes of man) death on a cross. Lucifer/Satan is proud. He wanted to be God; but as we all know, that was impossible. Lucifer/Satan was merely a creature of God, as we all are. So Lucifer/Satan, and approximately one third of the angels that God created, rebelled; and were cast out of heaven. (Hebrew: Satan – adversary.) Satan has used his main vice - pride - against humanity from the very beginning. Listen to what "allah" supposedly tells Mohammed: that Muslims (males) are the very best of creatures. What does that do? It engenders in Muslims (males particularly) a false sense of pride, which pushes them away from the true God.

When Jesus heard a few of His disciples arguing about who was the greatest among them, Jesus said: "Whoever among you who wishes to be the greatest among you must be the servant of you all." His message? Jesus (God) came to this Earth to serve, not to be served. Any of us who wish to be pleasing to God must imitate Christ's life on Earth, plain and simple; and that doesn't mean having a puffed-up ego thinking that "we are the best of creatures". That means acknowledging who and what we are, sinners - all of us, whose only salvation was made possible by the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That means also acknowledging who and what God is – the Creator of all things, and our Heavenly Father.

* God does not deceive, nor can He be deceived. He knows everything that is in our hearts and minds. In Islam, one of the names for "allah" is "the great deceiver".

* God is love; and Jesus preached - and lived - God's love. Jesus did not incite any to war or to hate others. He told His apostles to go and preach the "Good News" of salvation; and if any town did not want to hear the message, to "Shake the dust of that town from their sandals so that it would be a testament unto them." Islam - with its concept of "jihad" - incites Muslims to hate the "infidels"; and to "make war against them until all proclaim that there is no god but allah and Mohammed is his messenger".

* God said to mankind: "Two ways are set before you, O man: the way of life and the way of death. Therefore choose life." (One that I would recommend the pro-abortionists take heed.) Mohammed tells us that "there is no greater glory than to slay and to be slain for allah".

* God the Father’s heaven is one where we enjoy eternity with our Creator. This is purely spiritual. Mohammed's view of eternity is one that appeals only to the carnal lusts of man. Does that sound like what the True God would promise to those who love and serve Him? Nope. Sounds like another con from the greatest con-artist ever known: Satan. Sorry guys. There will not be 72 virgins awaiting your beck and call; and no eternal erections either.


Are you getting the idea? If you still don't believe me, read the Quran and haddiths. Then start reading the Bible. Above all, ask God, with a sincere and humble heart, to show you the truth. Jesus said that: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I'll leave you with that thought.

Home run.

The Ahmadiyya sect is far from mainstream Islam and is considered non Muslim by Sunni's and Shia alike.......their love and peace message without the other elements of Islam violate the basic creed.
Their founder was a bit off his rocker.
If any modification of Islamic behavior and outlook is to take any real hold it will have to be a Sunni group or individual.

Thank you, Dusty. I'm No.2 - I try harder.:D