SF Med:

Well I can't fault you for your training outline. Not sure I could take me for three weeks though. He, he, he.

Actually I am pretty honored you would put me in there with the other fellows. I think that NDD has an exceptional training vision and program and would not mind getting some coaching from him.

One way or the other, the point of your post is well taken.

Gene

Training
 

COLAWMAN,

I'm sure you'd agree that firearms skills are a perishible skill set, would you not? Qualifying twice a year is hardly the type of training that reduces your handicapp (to use golf slang) This is what my city and county PD get, that's about it, and I'm sure you'd agree that firing at a B-27 target at 7 yards twice a year is not a real standard. Heck, I fire more than that in a week and I'm not in the business of having to rely on my firearms training each and every day of the week, month, and year. Sure, I relize that small depts have budgeting issues and a host of other skills that are required, but if they are going to champion themselves as "SHOOTERS" they had better start taking their firearms training more seriously. This may or may not be the standard at your dept, but merely what my TAX DOLLARS are paying for.

They, my local city PD, insisted on purchasing AR's for each patrol car. That's fine, as long as they spend at least that much on training the officers to a minimum of skill training with a carbine rifle. Most of these same officers have never held, field stripped, or fired an M16 family of carbines in thier lives, but they have them in their squad cars. If I recall one of the former Army reserve soldiers gave them a 4 hour class at a local gun club. I'd prefer, as the tax payer, to have them keep them in the locker/armory if they cant find the training to confidently employ them in an urban city.


As for the officers that you mentioned having sacrificed their lives, of course they have my applause and patriotism. I'd be the first to volunteer to put a slug between the running lights of the men and or women that caused their departure.

Gene-
I'm not going SOTB to be humiliated by a fellow 18D, when it's much less expensive to stay in the States and be humiliated by an 18A, an 18D/Z, and an 18B - much more bang for the buck, and goes right along with the triple volunteer theory.
Wouldn't you agree?

TR, I'm sorry. I have no excuses and work harder on my grammar. Spell check issues are fixed.

Edited to add: I knew my SRO well and saw him a good deal my sophomore year when I got back on a seizure medicine that gave me a bad reaction.

Texas School Tells Classes to Fight Back
 

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Oct...ssroom,00.html

There is also a video report down on the FOXNews.com front page.

82ndtrooper,

You say that you would be the first to volunteer...but you haven't, have you???
I believe this is an example of the mere rhetoric that COLAWMAN referred to.

There are LEO's that go to work every day actively seeking those that would cause harm to any member of the public and / or the LEO community. Their firearms skills may be less than desirable, but they do what they speak.

If you don't feel that your getting what your TAX DOLLARS are worth, then ask for more. No, demand more. But, be aware, you might have to pay more TAX DOLLARS to get it. The training you suggest does not come for free in most cases.

So that you know my position on this topic, LEO's should be expected to devote whatever off-duty time that is required to maintain the requisite skills. Same goes for physical fitness, firearms skills, etc., etc..

So, do you spend as much of YOUR free time researching your Financial Advising related topics? Since I am required to PAY for financial advice, I would expect that you Financial Advisors would spend most of your free time working on those skills so that I can be assured I am getting the most for my money. Seems to me that you could spend more of your firearms "hobby" time on something more related to YOUR profession also.

I browse this board because it offers work related information. Why is it that you are not spending your time on the Motley Fool website, or some other financial advising site?

ER,

I believe this should have been nipped in the bud by us. Please allow me to rectify that now.

82ndtrooper,
Unless you have an LEO background or some experience dealing with hostage situations then shut-up.

That goes for all that never dealt with such scenarios. As I was in the 82nd as an infantryman I know we did not train for such situations. So I know you didn't get that sort of training there.

Beware those that criticize and never walked in those shoes, I've also had enough of it.

Team Sergeant

In my neck of the woods, LEOs and Teachers all have the same problem, lack of funding to carry out the current job at hand, let alone a new one.

In one PD, that I had over sight on, the average office going on shift already had over 8 hours of paper work he/she was behind on. Current schools have increased class sized and cut Teacher's positions because of funding cuts.


My wife who was a special ed teacher, had over 60 hours of work each week for the 40 hour pay. The future for her only held a greater work load.

There does not seem to be any real relief in the future as far as additional funding.


I strongly agree with The Reaper......... Perps are narcissistic ________ (<- colorful wording here) and the news media feeds and encourage them. They should have complete anonymity. From trial, to execution, to burial.

Gentleman,

My apologies for the previous post...it came across much stronger than I had intended.

This was a very interesting thread with lots of great views on both sides of the topic.

ER

The Reaper is hitting on all eight cylinders on this thread imo. Couldn't agree with him more.

LE training is entirely money (lack thereof) driven.

That said ... and in defense of the cops ... no one is going to handle your SWAT callout for you.

By the time SF or CAG or HRT or DevGrp or friggin' Santa Claus gets there ... it's done.

And doing nothing is not an option. Otherwise why even show up?

I have been there and done that and it is no fun. People were shot and died because of it.

Sometimes you just eat a s@#t sandwich and there is not one thing you can do about it but train that much harder and pray to God that it doesn't happen that way again.

Just one dumb Cajun's opinion.

Back to my hole ...

BK, I never said we needed a military solution and I agree with what you've posted. With that in mind I give you a possible solution;

We can start a "National SWAT Team".

This team could be positioned in three to four areas of the United States and that in its self would allow some parts of the team to be on site in a matter of two hours or less. We don’t need three hundred men for one individual crazy guy holding six kids. We do need all three hundred for a Beslan school/ Waco situation.

And if we were to have Russian Beslan school incident all three/four teams would respond and all be on the same frequency, uniform and training.

I for one do not want the FBI or any federal LEA responding to a Beslan/Waco type situation. We need a new agency with one purpose in mind, to fight terrorists and evil men, face to face on US soil. No Posse Comitatus Act to deal with, no politics, no wondering who to give the mission to, just a highly trained team of men ready to do battle with the most violent and evil individuals on the planet 24/7.

We could prioritize their missions to include nuclear power plants, school hostage situations, etc.
A civilian agency with some of the ability of US military counter terrorists units is just what this nation needs right about now.

And for those wondering if it can be done I would say most emphatically, yes, this is very doable. If we can keep a dozen carrier battle groups on the ocean 24/7 we can keep a small group of "highly" trained and equipped men ready to fight at a moments notice anywhere in the United States in just two hours or less.

Team Sergeant

TS posted:

BK, I never said we needed a military solution and I agree with what you've posted. With that in mind I give you a possible solution; We can start a "National SWAT Team".


Pluses:

Establishing Federal LE jurisdiction in what is normally a State/Local matter may or may not be a problem. Current law/court decisions may have to be re-visited but it could be done. Maybe under a Homeland Security umbrella or something similiar. With all the press and incidents lately, the public may go for it.

ROE would be easy under the obvious guidelines for deployment this thread addresses. I. e. Immediate defense of life.

Federal money would buy the toys and tools and fund the training - your tax dollars at work.

NOTE: Federal money is THE single biggest asset that Federal LE brings to the table for local LE imo. That is, money that actually makes it to the guys who are wearing body armor. We can usually do the job ... What we need are the tools and training that only money can provide ... and it just isn't happening in small town USA.

Minuses:

Interagency cooperation between Federal - State/Local levels has historically proven problematic. COC issues always arise. LE is not the military (obviously) and sometimes ... we do not all get along. This is inefficient at best and extremely stupid at worst ... but it is also just the way it is.

Said team would HAVE to have an established military style hierarchy and all PD/SO admin personnel NATIONWIDE would have to be made aware of same.

Establishing SOPs regarding duties and reponsibilities of all individual agencies in the nation ranging from LAPD to Mayberry RFD; while awaiting the arrival of said Team ... would be a bona fide nightmare. Just too many variables.

Not many cops are going to sit and wait for hours for "Some Federal team" to arrive, especially since Columbine.

But hey ... game on TS.

When do we start?

Yes - Pass the laws, fund and train the "ideal" solution, and pray they have the time/opportunity to conduct a successful intervention. In the meantime change the mindset and improve the training of the first responders (and everybody else) and adopt an aggresive response to active shooters.

Even two hours is "a lifetime". Local LEOs are the 11B solution. There are 100's of thousands of them and they're (almost) everywhere. Most of them are adequately trained for their routine duties and many of them are capable of responding to (and motivated for) the rare extraordinary requirements. And their response time is (can be) measured in minutes. The critical first minutes of an incident when the situation is still fluid and an aggressive response has the best chance of disrupting the adversary's plans.

Life's not perfect. Nobody likes the s**t sandwich but sometimes there isn't much choice. An imperfect solution, applied in a timely fashion, is always better than the perfect solution applied after the fact. The paradigm has changed since Islamofascism and psychos have become the critical threats. Their objectives include dying on TV surrounded by their victims. The more time they have to accomplish that, the greater the number of potential victims. Waiting for the national response gives them the time to "stage" their drama for the 6 o'clock news. My .02 - Peregrino

Peregrino:

The biggest two problems we face are:

1. No money. PDs nationwide are undermanned.

Which equates to no out of town or specialized training, having to hire OT for a patrol shift so someone else can "go play SWAT", no ammo budget, no weapons, no equipment, no vehicles ... ad nauseum.

2. Administrators (and or city officials who should not be in our business) that have no clue ... but who truly believe that they do.

They just don't know what they don't know ... and you can't educate someone who already thinks he knows it all. That same person will be safe and sound in bed and in no danger when the pagers start going off.

It is truly a nationwide problem and the truly smart guys in this business say the exact same things, coast to coast.

I hear it everywhere I go pal.

Driving on.

Best,

BK

Beslan incident- IMO, The ideal would be using our current military assets that specialize in this type matter. If their op tempo renders them unable to perform this function (likely), then the formation of a new unit as the TS suggests to handle this task domestically would be ideal. Other than this particular type of hypothetical(thus far) scenario ... this solution is simply not practical to be an effective response to the vast majority of school incidents in the USA. Time to deploy is just not available if you utilize the lessons learned in the actual US events.

In every other past incident and the more likely scenarios to be seen in the future, I completely agree with The Reaper...100% .

Any challenge to these wanna-be dillon klebolds would be better than allowing free access to unlimited victims. I will put "coach fat-burger" in a classroom armed with his personal weapon against trench coat boy any day of the week. Something bad happens, at least I know my boy or girl had a chance. IF nobody is there on site as it happens, then I know my boy or daughter will likely be killed if it is so deemed desired by the whackjob. In the absolute worst case scenario, at least the punk will be occupied with the coach and that one classroom while the LE are responding. If the loser tries to move, he will do so much more carefully and SLOWLY since he will not know if another school official is waiting in the next doorway with his firearm.

All you guys that only want help if the help is someone trained at the level of the Team Sergeant in hostage rescue/counter-terrorism....well good luck. You will be waiting several hours at the very least. By then, in almost all scenarios likely to occur, the only action left for chuck norris and his gang to perform when they finally show up will be to arrive in their gucci shooting gear and start picking up of body bags after the incident. :rolleyes: It amazes me sometimes to read the idea that everyone has to have the freakin' skills of the Team Sergeant to be able to be armed and respond at all.

Take a real world example from my AO...
During the aftermath of the storm, there were plenty of the wannabe type thugs walking around taking what they could. When they ran across a situation where the people were not acting like sheeple and armed thmeselves... the thugs either chose an easier target or simply went away. Just as everyone on this site agrees, MOST men don't have the balls to enter a doorway when an armed and willing adversary is waiting for them on the other side. Why do we think that these little school cowards would be willing to do it ?