I will do so before I continue with this thread. I am confident though, because like I said I am not a stranger to this discussion, and have read many polemics on Islam, with a number of perspectives, and several arguments made here are not foreign to me. However it would be disrespectful of me not to read throughly, at very least, this thread.

Pain? what pain? I love learning, and If my opinions are undermined by someone who knows a good deal more than me, good deal, I am better for it. :lifter

This statement is inaccurate.

If you were to take the time to explore the many discussions of Islam on this BB going back several years, across a number of forums, and in scores of threads, you would find that all the points you have mentioned have been debated from many perspectives.

While, at times, the debate has been heated, even rancorous, the participants have striven, time and again, to support their arguments with references. And those references, in turn, have received many a challenge.

Perhaps I have spoken too broadly. I apologize, I did not mean to belittle anyone's intellectual courage, I am new to these forums, and my experience in this debate is outside of them.

But all the same, I do think that when it comes to these statements many people are too trusting of their sources. I will continue to explore this thread and others.

Are you familiar with "Reliance of the Traveller"?

TR

yes! I had a copy around somewhere, but I moved recently, I think it may have gotten lost in the clutter...

Good.

Do a search for it here.

Read the threads before making your own assumptions or generalizations about people here.

TR

you have an oppurtunity to either be the "bug" or the "windshield". Choose wisely your battles.

Most of us have been dealing with Islam for many years, and have proven ourselves under fire, while they tried to kill us. I hope that you have some good facts to bring to this discussion.

I think I do. But perhaps this is not the time or place for me to have this argument, not while I still have much to prove. As always I will defer to your experience, I have no reason to doubt you.

Of course, I will. I did not intend to make any generalizations about people here, just an observation about the large world. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

You jumped into..........
 

You jumped into a thread that had been running for 4 years and in a sense said we were all full of crap.

And when called on it you have been crawfishing around.

You seem like a person with lots of "opinions" on things.

The next time you post one of your "opinions" have multiple sources with facts to back it up - or your time here will be short.

If coming up with facts to back your case is too hard, well then.............

I wonder if coming up with supporting evidence and arguing my case would save my ass here or just shorten my stay further? Or should I say "roger, out" and get on with life?

It is a sincere question, I am not trying to be difficult at all. I have just gotten myself in a situation in which I am not sure if the best thing to do is just drop the argument and accept that totally convincing evidence is posted elsewhere on this board, or stand my ground and fight.

I should also say that I did not and do not think you are full of crap. If that is the impression I gave the onus is on me for the miscommunication.

That would depend on the quality of your work.

TR

Roger, TR! That helps my position a good deal. I'll be back in a few days after I have studied previous arguments more closely.

Thanks for the guidance.

#1 is all I have time for right now…below are “some” references…

Islamic Theology as well as Sharia divides the world in two spheres. The Theology and Legal system of Islam (theo-political / Jihad, etc.) are the tools of Islam's control mechanism, it is a political system, culture, and a religion. The political system of Islam determines the treatment of Kafirs and the governance of muslims.

Islam does promote a polarized ideology of us vs them - because, the Qur'an, Hadith, and Islam as a whole, refer to unbelievers as "Kafir" - and never identifies humanity as a unified whole - humankind is divided into whether a person believes mohammed is the prophet of allah or not, and those who don't are labeled Kafir... - "Kafir" - "Disbeliever" -“Infidel” - “Non-muslim” - “Pagan” - “Oppressors” - “The Immoral” - “Mischief makers” all interchangeable...with “Kafir”

What’s below seems quite polarizing to me, and divisive.....not my words, theirs…

* Kafir - Non-Muslim / Non-Believer
* Kufr - Unbelief/infidelity
* Apostate - One who denies the ultimate truth of Islam.
* Apostacy - The act of any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, and leaves the faith.
(Reliance of the Traveller - index for above - see pages 1132,1170,1172,1207).

Kafir are arrogant and divided:

Nay, but those who disbelieve are in false pride and schism. (Sura 38:2)

Kafir are close-minded:

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (Sura 2:6)

They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive. In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. (Sura 2:9-10)


Kafir are deaf, dumb and blind:

The likeness of those who disbelieve is as the likeness of one who shouts to that which hears nothing, save a call and a cry; deaf, dumb, blind -- they do not understand. (Sura 2:171)

Such are they whom Allah curseth so that He deafeneth them and maketh blind their eyes. Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts? (Sura 47:23-24)

Kafir are evil:

O ye who believe! spend of that wherewith We have provided you ere a day come when there will be no trafficking, nor friendship, nor intercession. The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. (Sura 2: 254)

And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers. (Sura 5:45)

The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of God: and God guides not people who do wrong. (Sura 62:5)

Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked. (Sura 24:55)

No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers.(Sura 7:5)

O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not. (Sura 7:27)

Kafir are greedy:

And you will most certainly find them the greediest of men for life (greedier) than even those who are polytheists; every one of them loves that he should be granted a life of a thousand years, and his being granted a long life will in no way remove him further off from the chastisement, and Allah sees what they do. (Sura 2:96)

Kafir are like animals:

If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect. (Sura 7:176)

Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road. (Sura 5:60)

When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." (Sura 7:166)

Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle; - nay, they are worse astray in Path. (Sura 25: 44)

Kafir are perverse:

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (Sura 9:30)

When thou lookest at them, their exteriors please thee; and when they speak, thou listenest to their words. They are as (worthless as hollow) pieces of timber propped up, (unable to stand on their own). They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. The curse of Allah be on them! How are they deluded (away from the Truth)! (Sura 62:4)

Kafir are Unclean:

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (Sura 9:28)

Kafir are unintelligent:

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. (Sura 8:65)

Kafir are the worst of creatures:

For the vilest beasts in God's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who understand not. (Sura 8:22)

For the worst of beasts in the sight of God are those who reject Him: They will not believe. (Sura 8: 55)

Verily those who believe not, among those who have received the scriptures, and among the idolaters, [shall be cast] into the fire of hell, to remain therein [for ever]. These are the worst of creatures. (Sura 98:6)

Therefore, the Kafir can be Hated:

They who dispute the signs of Allah [kafirs] without authority having reached them are greatly hated by Allah and the believers. So Allah seals up every arrogant, disdainful heart. and despised by Allah. (Sura 40:35)

The Kafir can be mocked:

On that day the faithful will mock the kafirs, while they sit on bridal couches and watch them. Should not the kafirs be paid back for what they did? (Sura 83:34)

The Kafir can be punished:

Say to the kafirs: My Lord does not care for you or your prayers. You have rejected the truth, so sooner or later, a punishment will come. (Sura 25:77)

The Kafir can be beheaded:

When you encounter the kafirs on the battlefield, cut off their heads until you have thor-oughly defeated them and then take the prisoners and tie them up firmly. (Sura 47:4)

The Kafir can be confused:

Some among them listen to you [Mohammed], but We have cast veils over their [kafirs] hearts and a heaviness to their ears so that they cannot understand our signs [the Koran]. (Sura 6:25)

The Kafir can be plotted against:

They plot and scheme against you [Mohammed], and I plot and scheme against them. Therefore, deal calmly with the kafirs and leave them alone for a while. (Sura 86:15)

The Kafir can be terrorized:

Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, "I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the kafirs' hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fin-gers!" (Sura 8:12)

The Kafir can be annihilated:

So the kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. (Sura 6:45)

The Kafir can be killed:

If they do not keep away from you or offer you peace or withdraw their hostilities, then seize them and kill them wherever they are. We give you complete authority over them. (Sura 4:91)

The Kafir can be crucified:

The only reward for those who war against Allah and His messengers and strive to com-mitt mischief on the earth is that they will be slain or crucified, have their alternate hands and feet cut off, or be banished from the land. This will be their disgrace in this world, and a great torment shall be theirs in the next except those who repent before you overpower them. Know that Allah is forgiving and merciful. (Sura 5:33)

War should be made on the Kafir:

Make war on those who have received the Scriptures [Jews and Christians] but do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day. They do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden. The Christians and Jews do not follow the religion of truth until they submit and pay the poll tax [jizya], and they are humiliated. (Sura 9:29)

A Muslim should not be friends with the Kafir:

Believers should not take kafirs as friends in preference to other believers. Those who do this will have none of Allah's protection and will only have themselves as guards. Allah warns you to fear Him for all will return to Him. (Sura 3:28)

A Kafir can be cursed:

They [kafirs] will be cursed, and wherever they are found, they will be seized and mur-dered. It was Allah's same practice with those who came before them, and you will find no change in Allah's ways. (Sura 33:60-61)

Source > http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c.../muslim/quran/
> http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...muslim/hadith/


Sharia Law

Many things cannot be done without the Caliph’s permission (A: though if there is no Caliph (def: o25), no permission is required.

o4:17 There is no indemnity for killing a non-Muslim...
(588-595)

f 12.26 ...keeping the company of oppressors or immoral...
(182-183)

f 21.2 (prayer)....Non-Muslim subjects of the Islamic state who attend are not hindered from doing so, but may not mix with us. (Kafir)
(216-217)

m 4.2 (marriage) ..(1)..."Allah has chosen the Arabs above others"

Unbelief (Kufr):

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

a 1.5 ...a person is not morally obligated by Allah to do or refrain from anything unless the invitation of a prophet and what Allah has legislated have reached him (n:w4) ....
...."We do not punish until we send a messenger" (Koran 17:15)
(2-3)

Invitations from messengers to “Embrace Islam”
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/osama.b....2.247097.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...129-irna01.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...510-irna01.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...ape/index.html


c2.5 The unlawful (haram) is what the Law giver strictly forbids. Someone who commits an unlawful act deserves punishment...

(3) and unbelief (kufr), sins which put one beyond the pale of Islam (as discussed at o8.7) and neccessitate stating the Testification of faith (Shahada)...
(pgs 30-31)

o4:17 There is no indemnity for killing a non-Muslim...
(pgs 588-595)

o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed

o8.7 (2) to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like this intention is hesitating whether to do so or not: one therby immediately commits unbelief:

(15) to hold that any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent:

(Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law Pages 30-45, 588-595, 595-610).


o9.0
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.

o9.1 Jihad is a communal obligation (def: c3.2). When enough people perform it to successfully accomplish it, it is no longer obligatory upon others.

o9.8 The caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians [kafirs] (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) - which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral regions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High.

(A: though if there is no caliph (def: o25), no permission is required).

Edited to add - Source > http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Trave.../dp/0915957728