temp
 

Thank you for that clarification Buffalobob.

(Note to the readers—This post is tied to this thread
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ead.php?t=7477
but I did not want to put it on that thread for fear someone would know even less than me and believe I was showing how to do things correctly) :D

I have decided to try my hand at shooting pistol competition of one form or another. So I looked up on the internet (which we know is populated extensively with intelligent people) some recommended loads that would make the power factor for a 9mm. It seemed like most everyone was using Titegroup and the cheapest bullets they could find in 124 grains and stuffing it in the cheapest assortment of brass they could scavenge. I loaded up some mixed brass with Titegroup and Speer 124 plinkers. Once the snow was supposedly gone from the back roads I headed to the range. I carried along some max load 115 Gold Cup HPs and some max load Lapua 123 RNs which I know have reasonable accuracy.

Having read some portions of the Army pistol marksmanship manual and looked at the picture of TS’s recommended grip, I decided to video my shooting style to see if it would provide me any insights to errors. One of the important things to know is that TS doesn’t shoot a glock!!! Right where he puts his weak side thumb is the Glock take down detent button. The first shot one notices that the detent button has sharp edges and the second shot one notices that they actually hurt and that shooting still again does not make it any less painful. Unfortunately, the Glock is recessed right there and the thumb really likes to slide up into that recess. I found that to be highly humorous. In the first video one will notice that on shot #7, I anticipate the shot and flinch. You will also notice I keep changing the weak side grip as I never get it the way that feels secure, and I am practicing for scuba diving as I never take a breath.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../6/c1ErxdrhuWs

After a few videos of me, I move the camera to the target and began shooting different loads. Up first is the supposedly great IDPA load with the 124 Speer RN and Titegroup. Distance is exactly 20 yards and the tape is 1.5 inch painters tape. The bottom group was the same load. Both are shot freehand.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../4/cupNECVSdBo

I am not happy with the groups from the 124 so I decide to shoot some 115s which I know produce decent accuracy and are what I keep in the mags when the pistol is at home.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../3/xhdTDvWx-Jk

I decide to try the 115s with my hands rested on the bench to see what the difference in groups size is from unsupported

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../2/v3vQuA7OlcI


The load I keep in the gun for black bears when elk hunting is 123 gr lapuas at +P. So I decide to try it unsupported. It shoots so well that I believe it is just luck and shoot a second mag to see if it is repeatable. Morale of the story is you don’t want to be a bear and try to steal my elk. One bullet gets away from me when I do not relax the trigger very far and have started the squeeze before the sight picture is fully restored or vice versa.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../1/Lu2tPyHNuLQ

Being as I am now having a good time and the gun is hitting what I am shooting at; I try the 123 Lapuas with my hands rested on the bench. Watch the left to right three shot pattern repeat itself. I wonder if I am resetting my grip every three rounds or just decide to come up for air.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../0/ws_Y5afvgo4


So after spending a lot of time researching good IDPA loads I find that I already had a good load. Unfortunately the Lapua bullets are expensive IIRC.

I like your plan B. That MK-II is just awesome.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

If a decision has not been made on the type of handgun to buy, I have personally had a very favorable experience with the HK P30. They just won't die.

The example in your link did.

I have had zero issues with mine either. I wipe it down every 1000 or so rounds with militech. Not out of lazyness, but as a deliberate decision. Thats firing army ammo thats got that wierd granular shit in the powder. So it can get pretty funky. Before I get scolded - I'm more deliberate about it when it matters.

Only issue I've ever seen with a glock, was on my own 21SF. When I dissassembled it I saw the (stock captured) recoil spring assembly had slipped just off the half moon recess on the barrel lug. I thought I might have just bumped it during dissassembly so I fired again and I partyly replicated the problem, but it didnt slip completely out this time. I'm pretty fanatical about my glocks so I was a bit bent about it. In the end it didnt really matter because I always replace em with a non captured rod and spring since I see that new assembly theyre putting on the new glocks as the only potential weak link on the gun. That being said it still never jammed or failed to fire.

At home I have a 19 17 26 and 21SF. Huge Glock fan. Very reliable and accurate. I'll get a 34 soon. I hope you end up being happy with your purchase. If not I'm sure youll be able to sell it without much of a loss

BuffaloBob,

In addition to the viscous Glock factory grease, the lightening cuts on the G34 slide allow for a slightly lower 'margin of error' with regards to cycling due to chamber pressure, obstructive fouling, infirm posture or grip, etc...

While shooting IDPA, I've seen various Glock 34's choke during courses of fire that required shooting using support side hand only, using lower quality ammunition with a less effective powder burn (Wolf, which the 17/19 seem to have no trouble with).

Also, the tendency continues if you try and suppress the pistol. A friend and I tested a Suppressor Package (AAC Evo 9mm) on a Glock 34, and it had continual problems cycling, leading to more evidence that the slide lightening changes the feeding characteristics. The suppressor in question has a built in Nielson, which compensates for the diminished recoil by adding back-pressure specifically to help the weapon cycle.

The longer barrel also tends to send 147gr 9mm's supersonic in addition to the issue of decreased reliability.

Just a few things to consider that I hadn't seen mentioned... Hopefully it'll be of use to others considering the G34.

Cheers,

Aaron

Can you go into this in more detail? I understand the individual issues mentioned, but having trouble grasping why it is more of an issue on the 34. Despite the longer barrel, isnt the weight center/balance of the pistol the same as the 17? Hence the decision to lighten the front of the slide???

Dont own one, dont have any experience with one, but probably will buy one soon... Hence my curiosity on the subject..

Sir,

They have different weights, but check out the difference between the 19/17 and the 17/34, and barrel lengths:
G19 Weight: 20.99 BBL: 4.02
G17 Weight: 22.04 BBL: 4.49
G34 Weight: 22.92 BBL: 5.32"
Source: http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm

The 19/17 BBL difference is WT: 1.05oz BBL: .47".
The 17/34 BBL difference is WT: 0.88oz BBL: .83".

You can see right off the bat that the weight to length ratio isn't commensurate between the 3 models. This disparity means that for a longer overall barrel in the G34, you're actually getting about 4/5 of the weight increase - Basically, Glock reached a barrel length/weight ratio that made the gun "Nose heavy", and compromised a bit of its reliability. The result was the G17L - which became the G34, with the lightening cuts.

This is about where my understanding/information of the physics ends - I can't tell you what effect recoil spring weight or specific loads (and their corresponding Force) have on balancing this out, or where the line of diminished returns is with regards to ammo.

What I'm getting at is that there is an empirical link between the deviation of the ratios and the reliability; IE, the G19/17 do not suffer from suppression or ammunition variation while the G34 does.

Just did a quick search, and with some more data, this might be useful:
http://www.bsharp.org/physics/recoil

Cheers,

Aaron

I posted that entry to demonstrate that even with mechanical parts deterioration, the design of the pistol still allows it to function. I've been around a lot of handguns that have reacted to broken parts by becoming completely nonfunctional, but I have never seen a P30 cease to function. This has just been my observation.

Buffalobob, just quick observation. Your grip is not exactly as what TS demonstrated. Make sure the supporting hand is as high as possible to the point that the wrist is bent like when throwing a fish lure, and the supporting hand's index finger further forward under the trigger guard. Between the 1st and 2nd video I could see your supporting hand's pinky slipping. A picture is worth a thousand words and a video is probably more, so here's one to illustrate what I meant. It's not focused on grip, but watch how he forms his grip and stance....and yes, he's shooting a stock glock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d2VdaiIodo

I was once a non-believer of glock accuracy. It sure is not the most user-friendly accuracy-wise, but it's very much capable. I've finally shot the 17 as well as I shoot the HK P30 @ 25m. Given unlimited $$$, of course I'd still go with the P30:D

Thanks Forstfire for the link. I downloaded the video and am going to print off a picture of the guy's hands and then print off the one of TS. Plus I am going to make a sheet to take with me to the range of what the manual says about grip so I do not have to rely on my memory of how everything is supposed to fit together.

Secondly, I went to my loading manual and reviewed the parameters of the +P bear load that shot well. It was in loaded in +P Rem cases. So I conclude that just like in rifles, case uniformity makes a difference. Damn internet warriors who believe cheap is better than accurate. So I am going to try the Titegroup powder in well sorted uniform cases with several different bullets and see what happens.

BB:

What do bears weigh where you hunt?

If you would not trust a 5.56 on them, I would not be using a 9x19 either.

TR

The original primary purpose of the Glock was home defense. I already have a 460 S&W which has the same case capacity for powder as a 308. The problem with the 460 is it has a brake on it so you have to wear ear muffs to shoot it and it weighs about 5 pounds without a holster. With holster, earmuffs and ammo you are looking at 6 pounds or so of weight. I used it one year and found the need for earmuffs to be very slow and cumbersome in the dark and when going to pack out an elk it is a lot of weight to carry. I could order a closed muzzle extension to replace the brake but it seems like a lot of trouble.

I am a big fan of the 5.56 with FMJs but the DC regs prohibit owning any rifle or shotgun with a pistol grip or otherwise looking like an assault rifle. So it is not an option for me.

I would certainly not actively hunt black bears with a 9mm and if I was buying a pistol specifically for general carry in black bear country I wold probably go to a 10 mm. Certainly a 9mm is underpowered for a bear by any measure, but it is what I have and it is OK for sleeping in the tent at night and for the one day or so that it takes to pack out an elk.

Here is a video of what it looks like to pack out an elk by your self.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../9/7f37MdaTxA0

Whether or not I would actually shoot a bear for eating my elk is questionable being as I do my best to give the meat away anyway and the bear would be saving me from having to pack it out. :D.


P.S.

One of the interesting pieces of trivia in my life is that Utah prohibits any firearms in your camp while archery hunting UNLESS you have a concealed carry permit. So I actually have a concealed carry permit for Utah just so I can have my guns with me.

A couple of observations at this point in time. The Glock 34 definitely likes full power loads and does not like light loads at all. I conclude that the earlier comments about the light slide are correct.

I am currently shooting 123 gr Lapua round noses and HS-6 w/ Fed primers.

I have now shot two two IPSC matches, one IDPA match and one Bullseye match. They DNF'd me on the Bullseye match because I did not have a 45 cal handgun. Didn't matter about being DNF'd being as I was happy not to be DQ'd for shooting a target when I was supposed to hold fire. I do not understand some of the stuff in Bullseye - I mean why would you say "make the line safe" and then rotate the targets to be shot. Nonetheless, the lesson to be learned was to always have a spare battery for your ear muffs so you can hear the commands.


Pistol competition is habit forming and there should be a surgeon generals or federal reserve warning on competition pistols. :D