Where do I begin? Team Sgt, lets do the math, where do you want to start, 9/11? There are not millions of cops, look at how many are killed and injured in the line of duty each year. SF is trained to Win their encounters while cops are trained to tie, ie not destroy. Puts a bit of a different flavor in a fight if one side is constrained from going all out.
Guy, I am sorry, I thought the draft ended! While you are over in Iraq who is here in the homeland protecting the families? Do you want to skimp on the training for the folks protecting your family while you are deployed?
We are and have been manufacturing violent criminals. We have become very efficient as a society at creating a very violent and dangerous sub-element of our society. Like it or not, the average cop comes from the lower middle or upper lower class. The3 majority of cities cannot afford the cost of vetting these folks as well as your average soldier in a commo MOS is. They get 8-16 weeks training, are forced to join a municipal union. They are trained by folks who have been trained by others not to rock the boat.
Many of you would be howling like banshees if the media treated your missions with the same shallow indifference they do on Cops and other media BS programs.
Washington State patrol used to pull alongside cars that were running and shoot holes in the engine blocks. That policy went by the wayside about the same time they quit requiring troopers to be 6 ft tall white men.
There are literally, millions of convicted/non caught violent felons living in the US. Our population is about 265 million just 1% is somewhere around 2.65 million. They are murdering, raping, robbing and injuring Americans by the bushel year in and year out. We as a society simply do not want to face these problems. Rather than awaken our collective conscience we feel better ignoring it. Ghetto cops are part of an Army of occupation. I left the DC police when I became part of Marion Barry's body guard detail. I went back into the Army so I could at least be allowed and encouraged to win a fight or two. Look at how many of our people are being killed, maimed and assaulted sexually and otherwise here at home every year. Those are `apparently acceptable losses. I am a trigger puller by training, experience and inclination, at this stage of my life I just wonder where it will do the most good.

Great point! I have to say though that we have a tendency to look out for each other fairly well.

I would prefer 1000 times over that the man of this household was home nights to check out those strange noises in the back yard that send the dogs high order, but failing that I'll settle for a highly trained police force that can get here in record time. Although, we do have friends with guns that are always ready to help out.

I don't know if it's true of all SF folks but it is with our friends - We tend to "clump" together. There are half a dozen 7th Grp guys in my neighborhood. I turn to them on a regular basis when I have a small problem like noises in the back yard or a non-group neighbor who is bugging me.

Roger that.

Couple of notes. We do not have a union. We cannot quit and move if we do not like the boss, or our jobs.

When I tell one of my people to go do something that will almost certainly get him killed, he cannot go "Screw you, Jack!" without some pretty serious repercussions.

When SSG Schmuckatelli, whose wife is eight months pregnant with their first child, gets orders to get down to Green Ramp and palletize for a little trip overseas for a year, he cannot quit.

When he gets where he is going, and has to work 80 hour weeks, he gets the same pay, no overtime.

When a local club needs some security, they don't call him and offer him $50 an hour, off the books, to come down and work the door.

Who volunteered to protect my family while I am gone? Not sure, SCOTUS says that LE has no obligation to protect anybody. The local cops in my neighborhood volunteered to do police work, and if it gets too hard, they can quit and do something else tomorrow.

Do you think the media only picks on LEOs? Do you remember late Vietnam, or read the paper these days?

Wouldn't be a cop for five times what they pay them here. Too much second guessing, BS, and political correctness.

OTOH, don't sell who we are or what we do short, or think that we are overpaid, or overtrained.

You really believe that, pick up the glove, and come to the SFQC for your share.

TR

Reaper; did Viet Nam AMERICAL & 101st, and a place called Dong ba Thinh attached not assigned to 5th Grp. Did Central America 83-86, CTTF &CNTF, was the active Army's primary advisor to 297th SF MI CO(USAR) Each of my children were born in different countries on different continents. My wife and I were held at gunpoint( twice, once while she was pregnant) while they threatened to kill me and assault her by PDF secret police during Manny Noriega's tour. Currently hold a retired ID card. Most of the SOF soldiers. Would Love to grab a ruck and come back recruiter says no thanks. Neither cops nor soldiers are drafted. Make you the same offer you made me. Go be a ghetto cop for awhile, pick up that glove for your share. Then, lets compare notes.
I seem to remember those same fellows you mention as being able to tell their bosses to "screw off" running into the Trade Centers on 9/11 while everyone else was running out, even though they had no obligation to do so according to you and SCOTUS. You might take some of your own advice and read some of those accounts of the people you speak so derisively of. I am unsure if it is the message or the messenger that offends you.
The point I was trying to make is one Aristotle did much more succiently 2500+ years ago. Poverty is the parent of revolution.
Rome rotted from the inside. The terrorists are here, they have been here, we call them criminals. There are millions of them! America attacks the problems it sees, it does not see these problems. Acknowledging the real costs would mean resonsibility to any society with a conscience. Rather than doing that, it is simply better for society to ignore them. So Reaper here is the question, in the last ten years which group has killed and terrorized more innocent Americans al Queda or the criminals in this country? Which group have we as a country spent more assets on trying to defeat during the same time period. Which group is more likely to destroy the fabric of our society?

NS, I’m not going to argue with you about numbers, fact, law enforcement officers currently in the US number about one million, total officer deaths in 2003, is 133. Let me assist you with the math, that’s about one officer for every seven thousand five hundred on duty.

We have a much higher causality rate.

Go fuck with someone else, I’m not going to play your game.

Team Sergeant

First thank you for your service and support of my brother SF soldiers. I take it that you are not SF qualified. I was in Hondo the same time frame you were, in Juticalpa, Soto Cano, and Tegu.

Now take a deep breath, and relax. You seem to want to lash out here at someone. You took a shot at the Team Sergeant and Guy, then at me and now want to argue about a SCOTUS decision. Obviously, you wish to make this personal. If you are cruising for a fight here, I'll be your huckleberry.

I worked as a dispatcher for four years, so I have about as much knowledge about being a LEO as you do about being an SF soldier. This is an SF site, not an LEO site, so expect a certain perspective on things here.

I already stated: "Wouldn't be a cop for five times what they pay them here. Too much second guessing, BS, and political correctness." Did you miss that in your rant?

I am sorry, I seem to remember quite a few cases of "blue flu" and police strikes over the last 40 years, when has the military mutinied and refused to do their sworn duty over pay?

Are you trying to wrap yourself in a flag and rest on the laurels of the NY LEOs who died in the WTC? Not sure you want to go down that road. I count 71 LEOs lost in the line of duty, and 343 firefighters. 125 military and civilian DoD personnel died in the Pentagon. Tragic deaths all, some as heroes, many acts of valor (and cowardice) unknown. Have I spoken of them before this? I don't think so. What is the relevance of this point? Some good officers out there, and some who would be bad garbagemen. One shot two SF students two years ago playing cowboy. Is he the example you want cited?

Thank you for your advice. Do you presume that I am ignorant? I have read the accounts, know the history, suggest that you do the same WRT SF losses. I never said a word about LE losses. Will you guarantee me that none of them ever did any of the things that I mentioned before to differentiate between SF and LEOs? What is offensive to me is your attitude, your attacks on my SF brothers, and your attempts to spin the topics to suit your own interest, all the while, as a guest on an SF owned and operated board. You want to brag on the soldiers who ran back into the Pentagon without gear or training to try and help?

It occurs to me that if you honestly believe that terrorists and criminals are the same, you need to review the definitions thread and turn in your weapon till you fully understand the difference.

Millions of them incarcerated as well, billions spent to apprehend and keep them there. Are you ranting about social responsibility, conscience, injustice, poverty, what? Are you one of those who think we should disarm, stand down the military, and redistribute the money in additional welfare payments to the needy? Doubling LE salaries? Establishing a National Registry and a police state? Anarchy? What are you advocating here, and what is your proposed solution? Complaints without recommendations are just gripes and snivels.

Killed? Until 911, LEOs had killed more citizens in the US than terrorists ever had. Many of them no doubt deserved it. Some, like 1LT Tomeny and SSG Phelps, did not. With a 3,000 death morning, obviously, the scales changed.

Terrorized? Completely different subject. Since criminals are primarily committing crimes for the sake of immediate gratification, and the only ones in that group attempting to influence opinion MAY be organized crime, little terrorism there.

On the other hand, since 911, anyone who has been afraid to fly because of the possibility of terrorism, travel overseas, go to a public gathering, visit public places, thought that the US should change its policies, etc. has been a victim of international terrorism.

Prior to 911, the domestic law enforcement budgets of all Federal, State, and local police departments FAR exceeded the piddling amount spent on AT and CT. It likely still does, if you only count direct AT and CT costs.

I agree that over the past 10 years, the average American is far more likely to be killed by a criminal (or an LEO) than a terrorist. In the previous ten years, NO citizen in the U.S. was killed by a foreign terrorist group. You were MUCH more likely to be wrongfully killed by an LEO than by a terrorist. That is the way statistics work.

Riddle me this. Given: Criminals killed more US citizens on the average over the past ten years than terrorists. Will you make that guarantee for the next ten years?

There are many factory- built thermonuclear weapons unaccounted for, and unknown numbers of homemade weapons and dirty bombs out there, which have already been used for terrorism. There are tons on chemical weapons, easily manufactured, on the market and in the hands of states known to sponsor terrorism. There are modified strains of biological agents out there that you cannot even conceive of, developed by the Soviets, Chinese, North Koreans, Iran, Syria, and God knows who else. Many of these require no weaponization to deliver. Any (or many) of the tens of thousands of people entering this country legally and otherwise could be a carrier. Let's say that a 300KT weapon is brought into this country and detonated in a major metropolitan area. Immediate deaths could exceed 1,000,000 people, another million or more die later, industry is disrupted, commerce wrecked. After about five seconds of that rolling fireball, do you still think that your stats would still reflect the criminals to be the greater threat to this country? A highly communicable, airborne, lethal pathogen arrives in this country simultaneously from 12 major cities. On the long flights, breathing recirculated air, the carrier infects everyone else on the plane, who proceed to their departure gates for additional flights, etc. Millions die, martial law is declared to enforce quarrantine areas, the country is isolated internationally, nothing in or out for years. Do you still see criminals as a greater threat?

The criminal kills on a small scale, usually for immediate reward. He gets away, kills again, eventually gets caught. Tragic for those involved, no doubt. We miss one bad guy with one of the above scenarios, 911 could look like amateur hour, this country would be wrecked for years.

Things change. Societies have to change, and adapt, or perish. You might want to review your history. Rome fell after they quit being warriors taking the war to the bad guys, and started building walls defending an increasingly dependent underclass at home. If we fail just once at the wrong time in the GWOT, this country could be finished.

And yes, it could be an $18,000 per year rookie cop that catches him here at home. Like Lee and Sherman though, I prefer to take the war to the enemy, and do my fighting on his turf.

You have a very SF day, and I hope you think on this before responding.

TR

Agreed, that is why we do.

That is why atleast once a month I take who ever wants to go out and we shoot.

If no one wants to go then I go on my own. I wish I could shoot more but we don't have the facilities.

As far as driving goes. Hahaha we don't have any training other that what is provided in the Academy. We do not have the opportunity, we all beg for it but it is not a priority for our admins. Any driving training we do is totally unofficial and pretty friggin dangerous, b/c its a sort of trail an error aka learning by brail type of driving. We do it away from civilains so that is not a factor but it is still completely unprofessional.

Why because that is all we have to work with. Some will ask well why don't you have to qualifiy with your car just like with your firearm. Well, the way our admin looks at it is, "thats why you have a drivers license right." Our response is ya right whatever your fucking say.

TS, I love your idea, when is training and can I come?

Joe,
The main reason training like driving is high in the States is the insurance is outrageous.

What is the training priority for you guys? According to the admins I mean.

It’s not, at all.

It’s pretty friggin sad really. We are a small agency about 82 sworn and about 120 detention Officers. But we are the second largest county in the nation at 180,000 square miles. We encompass most of the Grand Canyon and Lake Powell (to name some familiar spots) From Sedona, Az to Utah and from Seligman, Az to Winslow, Az. Its kind of a po-dunk county, b/c we have the longest running Sheriff in the Nation (32 + years in office). Pursuits around here are hit and miss (pardon the pun) but if I had to guess we get one around here (meaning one of the agencies in the area not just the S.O.) about ever 3-5 months or so.

Outside the Academy we get ZERO additional training (unless you count the 14-week FTO program which is mostly pointers nothing more). Our detention officers get nothing at all not even in the academy! And they do armed transports (what I do). Yup I got zero official training in how to drive. I had to seek out my own training and hit guys up on what to do and what not to do. Hence what I said in my earlier posts about learning by Braille. It’s pretty jacked up but when admin says, "ah you don't need to know that stuff it’s a waste of time, money, and man power." What are supposed to do expect go outside the department to gain training?

Here is something else that will make your jaw drop (not to get to far off topic), I am a firearms instructor for my department have been for about 2.5 yrs now and I have been begging for "official training" on AR-15's (I have been taught outside the department again on my own with my own time and money). I want the "official" stamp so I can carry one. They have always told me no way a D.O. is going to carry a rifle! But seeing how you are a firearms instructor we will let you go through the training. I was told this last week. They think that carrying a rifle is to aggressive and completely out of the question for our guys to carry. Even though they transport high profile criminals all over the southwest. Hell, most of our transport guys can't even carry a shotgun.

Pretty sad uh?

Not good at all.

I agree, that and a HOLE bunch of other crap is why the misses wants me to seek employement else where.

I can't say I really blam her though.

That sucks Joe,
I feel for you. My dept is a pretty large dept. We have 2,400 cops and about 1000 sheriff's (Intake only) for a city with a population of over 800,00 not counting the commuters and tourists who bumps that up to well over a million. Our city is 49 square miles with my district being about 11 sq miles.

We have our own academy which means that training is there if you want it. You just have to request the training and pretty much you get it. Except for shooting schools (only for specialized units)

Our dept mandates that you receive refresher EVOC (vehicle) training every 3 years. Me being a ghetto cop, I find that most ghetto cops or cops who have worked the ghetto are pretty good at pursuits.

For patrol and inspectors, You have to qualify twice a year, with pistol, shotgun, and ERIW (less lethal). You're allocated 100 rds hand gun monthly to practice.

For me being in a specialized unit, I get 2 hrs overtime each pay period to shoot my toys off duty. I get unlimited ammo for off duty practice. I'm required to qualify with all my toys every month and to pass a pt test every other month.

Being in a specialized unit, I pretty much get to go to the schools that the average patrol officer can't go.

Even though I gotta put up with lots of crap at work, the only think I really appreciate are the guys in my specialist unit.

I appericate it.

I'm lucky b/c I have alot of really squared away people I work with so its not completely horrible. We just have to FIGHT with admin for every little thing. Its sucks right now b/c I have a total puss for a Sgt. who won't sack up to the admin and ask for extra training or O.T. for training. So we have to accomplish all our training off duty with our own ammo or vehicle.

The hole rifle and driving issue are another story. We will get that with a new Sheriff (maybe we will see who gets elected).

Stay Safe all

pm inbound. :)

Have you thought about Oregon?

Then they wonder why an officer excpends 15 rounds in an incident with no hits.

100 rounds is a warm up. Still, I am sure that some officers fail to use it, and don't feel that they need to.

This is little different than the soldier who gets 10 rounds of 5.56 per year to zero and 40 to qualify. No 9mm, and maybe 20 rounds or so for the SAW or M-240, if they want it and are not primary crew members.

Then they wonder why Officer Johnnie (or Private Joanie) can't shoot. Pitiful.

Joe, you live in a beautiful part of the country, but may be time to move on. How about a local municipal department?

TR