Good reminder frostfire. I occasionally get a question in class about point shooting and remind them it was popular when I was 6 or 7 years old. We've moved on to something better now.... :D

Found this site ping ponging around the web.

I am interested in Point Shooting, and plan to start a discussion of it for use at CQ.

Been discussing it and getting cussed at for bringing it up for around 10 years or so. As such, I have become thick skinned over the years, but still can be crabby. :)

My interest is narrow - my focus is only on aiming a handgun (pistol) at CQ (less than 20 feet), where if you are going to be shot, there is the greatest chance of that happening. (80%.)

Those are police based numbers, but probably have applicability to SOF.

My interest is also in improving the hit rate in CQ situations, which is less than 20%. Again that's a police based number, but one has to go with what's available.

..........

In previewing this post, I note that my sig line is showing. I tried to blank it out, but have not been able to do that. If it is not in accord with your rules, please erase it. Thanks.

Thanks I will add a response to it rather than here.

Just a short note about it for now:

I noted that most of the thread was from 2004, and the focus was on Applegate. I got stuff and quotes and selections from his book in articles. There also is Quick Kill, and Lou Chiodo's (Calif CHP) Threat Focus shooting, which was mentioned.

The US Army recommends Isso shooting at 15 feet or less and for shooting at night.

I'll be happy to add in my articles to the PS thread, plus stats and studies that back up what I say. I also have pics and videos on it. All the videos are on YouTube.

As to me, I don't teach Point Shooting. The method I use is so simple, most anyone can do it with little or no training, and it can be maintained with little or no practice. And it's free.

I was told to use by a WWII Sgt when shooting my grease gun from the hip back in 54. And the US Army in its combat pistol manual as late as 2003, says it works.

But and however; accurate Point Shooting just doesn't happen by magic. You have to know how to do it. And practice can improve performance.

Thanks again for your response.

Some basic info on why you should learn AIMED Point Shooting or P&S.

Sight Shooting has been proven by studies not to be applicable or effective in close quarters self defense situations where most all gunfights occur, and where there is the greatest chance of being shot and/or killed. (If you are going to be shot and or killed, there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.)

The still relevant NYPD SOP 9 study of thousands and thousands of police combat cases, found that Officers did not use Sight Shooting in most all cases. They reverted to untrained "instinctive" shooting.

They also with few exceptions, shot with the strong hand.

The gunfight hit rate at CQ is less than 20% and its been that bad for years, and years, and years. (So much for shooting as you train.)

As to using the sights, scientific studies have established that it is not possible to use them in close quarters life threat situations. In those situations, adrenaline is dumped into our system. And it in turn, relaxes the ciliary muscle of the eyes to enhance far vision for focusing on the threat. That unfortunately, causes the loss of near vision which is necessary for focusing on the sights.

As such, if a person does not know another shooting method that is accurate at close quarters, they will have no effective means of self defense in those situations where there is the greatest likely hood of being shot and/or killed.

Sight Shooting has been taught to be used in those situations for over the past 100 years, but sadly, there are no recognized studies or stats to prove either its applicability or effectiveness in CQ self defense situations. If proof exists, including pics or videos of it being used effectively, I will gladly post it to a page that awaits that info. Been looking for some for the past ten years, and there is none, nada. You got some? Please let me know.

Also, according to the literature, in life threat situations (CQ) both eyes will be open and you will be threat focused.

You will have a crush grip on your gun so you can forget squeezing the trigger, or holding your thumb without pressure against the gun, or keeping you index finger aloof from the gun so it can be used to manipulate the trigger, as marksmanship requirements dictate and competition pros emulate..

And if the lighting is bad and your gun and sights are dark and the target is wearing black (and possibly moving), how will one see the FS to complete the FSP mantra.

.........................

I readily agree that SEAL training or SF training could be such that operators could reflexively shoot and hit under any and all conditions at CQ.

But all soldiers don't carry pistols or are they trained to the level that allows them to shoot someone between the eyes without fail in very adverse conditions.

....................

So what's one to do if they are in a close quarters situations and their armament is a pistol.

Well there is what I call AIMED Point Shooting which provides one with automatic and correct sight alignment plus an automatic and correct sight picture, both of which are necessary to hit a target.

Basically the index finger is placed along the side of the gun, pointed at a target, and the trigger is pulled with the middle finger.

Here is what the US Army says about our ability to point at things. It is found in the US Army's Field Manual 3-23.35: Combat Training With Pistols M9 AND M11 (June,2003).

"Everyone has the ability to point at an object.

"When a soldier points, he instinctively points at the feature on the object on which his eyes are focused. An impulse from the brain causes the arm and hand to stop when the finger reaches the proper position.

"When the eyes are shifted to a new object or feature, the finger, hand, and arm also shift to this point.

"It is this inherent trait that can be used by a soldier to rapidly and accurately engage targets."

The method is not precision shooting, but it works, and can be learned and maintained with little or no training.*

It's not a bar to using the sights or FSP if there is time for that and conditions are such that the sights can be seen and employed using hand eye coordination to align the sights correctly and place them/it on the target correctly.

P&S works when moving, on moving targets, and even on aerials.

Because of a flaw in the design of the slide stop pin of the 1911, it shouldn't be used with a 1911. The original military manual on the 1911 (published in 1912), and other military manuals up until the 1940's cautioned against using it with the 1911. [[ "The trigger should be pulled with the forefinger. If the trigger is pulled with the second finger, the forefinger extending along the side of the receiver is apt to press against the projecting pin of the slide stop and cause a jam when the slide recoils."]] As such, and since the 1911 was the standard issue sidearm of US Forces until 1985, there are no doubts lots of military folk who don't know about the method, or will caution against its use.

Why the military did not make a modest and simple fix of the 1911, so its combat forces would have the option of using the method which the US Army says works, in close quarters life threat situations where those forces would be in the greatest danger of being shot and/or killed, is beyond me.

I made a short video of it titled Survival Point Shooting and its on YouTube if your interested. It shows it being used at the range, when moving, and shooting at aerials (pop cans tossed in the air - don't shoot at aerials with a firearm unless you are on an appropriate range).

I understand that some of you are against using Point Shooting, but if it can help you shoot to kill more effectively and reliably under most any condition, what's the problem.

I can provide more info on this or aspects of it such as the grip used which is a strong 4 fingered grip that results in a strong and level shooting platform. It's no sissy target shooting range grip. You can shoot to the front or side, make front punches, elbow smashes, and even use your forearm and the gun as a crude battle axe if needed.

I was told to use it by a WW II Sgt back in 1954 or 55 when shooting my grease gun from the hip. It worked then, and still does.

And yet no professional shooter in the world I have seen uses this technique in competition, or in combat.

Why do you suppose that is?

TR

*

You have come far young Jedi! :p And no - it isn't possible that I'm going to be teaching multiple response techniques. I have a hard enough time staying proficient with one.

The world is full of amateurs......;)

5shot,
You may want to read this entire thread before you defend point shooting. We are not amateurs.;)
Team Sergeant

P&S has been around since 1835. If you want, I will post a "Chronology of P&S" or you can google for it.

As I mentioned before the US Army was aware of it, but cautioned against its use with the 1911 in the original manual on the 1911 published in 1912 and in several other manuals that I am aware of up until the 1940's. [[The 1911 has a design flaw which prevents the user from using P&S which the US Army also says works, in those situations where there is the greatest likely hood of being shot and/or killed. As such the user is left with no fast, accurate, and reliable means or method of shooting. To bad a simple fix was not made alla the 1911A1. The Tokarev of similar design has a simple fix. If your interested google "The 1911 - A fatal Flaw".]]

P&S is for use at CQB distances where there is the greatest chance of being shot or killed [if you are going to be shot or killed, there is an 80 % chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.]

It also is not a bar to using the sights if they can be seen and employed for longer or precision shooting.

I understand that competition shooters use or used to use the Weaver, which really is not applicable for CQB according to the literature.

They also use a "marksman grip" wherein the thumb either is not against the gun or doesn't press against it, alla Brian Enos and Dave Sevigny, which also is not applicable for CQB as you will have a crush grip on your gun according to the literature. There's an article and picture of their range grip in an article in Handguns Magazine.

As to this thread, I read it twice, and even took notes along the way. IMO, in only the last few pages was there a "current" discussion, so I just jumped in with both feet.

..........

Can someone fix or erase my sig line. It should read: A pistol is not a rifle, so why shoot one like it is. Thanks.

Thanks for all of your comments, I expected much more flame.

Also, anyone know of or got pics and videos of Sight Shooting or FSP being used effectively in CQB?

Should be thousands, as a member here said in an e-mail, and I agree since SS has been taught for 100+ years, yet I have never seen one.

I have seen the pic of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald using AIMED Point Shooting or P&S as I call it, and the one of a guard using a two handed isso + point shooting while moving, who shoots and kills a robber, and one of a Chinese lady cop using point shooting with her strong hand, and shooting a hostage taker. He falls down and back, and she shoots him a couple of more times for good measure.

Lee Marvin used Point Shooting in the Dirty Dozen, he hit everything or it at least appeared so.:munchin

I'm thinking about switching over to "sideways point and shoot" cuz da boyz be bad wid dat style, nomesane?

:D

5Shot
Point shooting might be fine for police shooting, on unarmored people at close range. But now days with the high percentage of body armor on the battle field along with some no fail missions the military has, You will have to use your sights or your going to A. miss, B.have no effect on his body armor or C. worst case shoot a hostage.
Police officers do not know the gunfight is going to happen most the time.
On this side of the spectrum we expect the gunfight and leverage our body armor, speed, surprize, violence of action and numbers.

I will admit not so long ago it was viable when mass human wave attacks happen and I would revert back to pointing and shooting in that situation but for now I will use my front sight post.
You might want to look into Swat shootings also and see if they used Sights or point shooting.

5shot,
No one is ripping your head off here out of respect for your age.
That said you've now heard from a few Special Forces soldiers that we do not use/teach point shooting anymore and for the same reason we don't use six-shooters in combat. We have evolved in our techniques.

There's plenty posted on here about marksmanship, you might want to do more reading and less posting.

Team Sergeant

Thank you.

I can shoot aerials with a pistol, know rifle quick kill (with airsoft), and shot expert with an M1.

Thank you for your responses.

The information is out there for inquiring minds.

Think I've used enough of your space. So, bye.

Have a good new year and stay safe.

Nothing like being able to practice in your backyard every day. A fellow Montanan
shows some fast point shootin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqABkG1JpHM

Still has all his toes too :cool:

Due to that little metal deflector on the bottom of his rig. Look close and you'll see some dents.

What you're saying is, don't be standing to his right while on range.

LOL! Yes, useful for the wax and blank rounds at shows and demos. Notice when using the 250gr rounds the deflector is absent. Same trick but with softballs further out (couldn't find a video of that but know there is one).

You'll also notice where his elbow is when ever he point shots accurately, which he teaches to a few students each year.

He doesn't do it often because its painful, but he can fan his custom colt single action with each finger and point shoot faster than with his custom 1911, accurately. Sounds like a select fire weapon, impressive...

Here's some fatass I mean badass point shooting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELol1dHjHEE

Had to go throw up, thanks for the image Dusty...:D

As an after thought, below is a link to a pic that you may find of interest. Had never seen a target like that, so I bought one and used it for my first shots of the day with a rental. Someone on another forum complained that I had shot the hostage. I didn't know that it represented 2 people.

The point is that I don't think the talibandits use body armor, and in this case body armor wouldn't keep the target safe.


Also, when shooting in a hostage situation, why not just shoot a leg/s?

When whoever gets hit falls down or moves, shoot the perp.

Sorry for the comback post, but I usually make one or more hits in a 4 inch black at CQ distances, using a 175+ year old method shooting as fast as I can point my finger and pull the trigger.

See ya.

Fox would sh*t themselves if they received footage of an officer risking a hostage like that.

"BUT IT'S JUST A FLESH WOUND!"


Besides being against everything a police force stands for to the civilian population, enough departments get sued already.

Quick Kill
 

We did Quick Kill in Basic at Ft. Polk. It was the most (only) fun we had. Oddly, my favorite DS got shot in the butt. :eek: I swear it wasn't loaded, er, I mean me. :o ;)

Pat

I really hope that was a poor joke.

This is why we run these fourms, to stop the spread of really stupid advice. Above is really stupid thinking.

5shot, you're done here, please run along and give some other forums your advice.

And by the way, I get "all" of the shots in the 4 inch black as fast as I can pull the trigger, everytime and while indexing from target to target.

Team Sergeant

TS, please don't encourage this guy to go to other forums. He's already been kicked out of another before showing up here.

5shot, or should I say okjoe? Lets just go with John. You still never responded to the numerous, simple questions posed to you on another restricted forum. For instance, how you gained access to a law enforcement only website when you've never spent a day in law enforcement. I've also had a hard time relocating your bio on your website, you seem to have hid it well.

Anyway, good luck to you John. I thought the entertainment value I got from reading your posts was over....

Oh, almost forgot! You can do some digging and find that 5shot (then okjoe) posted on the Huffington Post about his beloved "aimed point shooting" technique. He tells the Post audience of "the world of the gun," and the reality of gunfights. However, in all of the research I did months ago, all I could come up with was his experience in shooting pie tins and paper targets. He sure has read a lot though!

point shooting
 

I agree with TS. We have moved onto better things. From several friends who can provide anecdotal evidence, when they had to use their pistol at close distance, they didn't see anything. They just pointed and shot.

At first glance one would say, "Aha, point shooting works.". When you decipher their skill level and training you would come to a different conclusion. They were able to hit the bad guy on the first shot because they new what "right looked like". Even great civilian shooters like rob lathem and others will tell you for close in shooting, just aim down the slide. Bottom line is you are still aiming. If you are close enough to shoot from the hip, you are one step from hand to hand and at that point a five year old has the skill to hit the target.

The old school method of point shooting has the shooter holding the pistol above waist level in a particular stance. If you think about it, you are still using a form of aiming. You are training your body to assume a position upon draw. After draw you "point" the gun at the target. If you want to admit it or not, you are still aiming. You have learned what "right looks like" upon draw before firing.

The only difference between modern rapid aimed shooting and point shooting is the ability of the shooter to switch to longer distances. :munchin

Very interesting and informative thread.

I do realize some of this thread refers to "point shooting" as pointing from the waist. I have always understood pooint shooting as pointing at your target with the weapon eye level so that's what the following refers to.

I have been training in and using point shooting or instinctive shooting for close to 20 years and agree with many of the posts here; you're still aiming at some level. The farther away the target, the more you use your sights. The "point" aspect is simply to get your first round on target asap. If shooting correctly (stance, grip, etc.) if your first shot is a hit, the following shots will follow suite. Even when point shooting, the doctrine states, "see" your target VIA the sights. Sight picture (unless in darkness).

The "pointing" is the method to get "on target" quickly.

Hoepoe

... and the words Col. Rex Applegate said surrounding this topic, that stick clearly in my head, were "this is aimed fire, not sighted fire"

Since Applegate's name is attached to some of this I thought I'd better get the quote right.

On second thought I think "point-shooting" is a great idea!!!!!

More people trained in the "lost-art" of point shooting the better! In fact those that enjoy the point shooting techniques might want to look into the gangsta grip.

Team Sergeant

[I feel a whole lot safer already!]

The 10 Rules of Point Shooting
 

Team Sergeant,
Applegate was one of the guys who researched fast shooting (as directed by one William Joseph Donovan) and trained it in WW2 to others.

The 1911 .45 was the standard pistol that I saw in the training films when the OSS files were declassified.

It was how to acquire a target fast and hit it under stress.

This was NOT shooting from the hip stuff. They did the best they could having only months or weeks to train young men to go to war.

The more I've learned about how you all shoot and having spent time around Applegate shooting... these may be converging lines of thought. You all have just taken it further.

Point Shooting was never intended to be shooting from the hip.

Edited to add: One of the things Applegate taught was to squeeze the trigger as soon as the front sight was on the target.
That's why i made the "converging lines" comment.

If you practiced enough and had the inherent talent to develop the proficiency to engage without using your front sight, you could do it. Bill Jordan was outstanding, as is Munden and others. Jordan more or less teaches the technique in one of my favorite books, No Second Place Winner.

But to standardize and expedite the training of an individual shooter, the front sight technique is basically mandatory in my experience; that point did not hit home with me while teaching LBG's to shoot High Powers, but in readying female medical personnel on their way down south.

Inherently, a woman will most likely be more accurate in her first gunfight if she never shot the handgun during her trainup because of the flinch. Once they do shoot, you have to do dummy drills (no offense) with them exhaustively until they get past the flinching. These drills and others incorporate sighting the weapon on the target, and would inherently be more suffessful in the elimination of a threat than teaching them to shoot instinctively due to the accuracy developed via repitition (mandated by the flinch drilling).

Using female medical personnel who are non-shooters as your base line for your student model, you find out that the quickest, most efficient method of training someone to successfully engage a target is by getting a sight picture as you press the trigger.

That's what I learned, anyway.

I like the shooting techniques of "curved" shots around objects in order hit my target.

Point Shooting ?
 

Train as you will fight & Fight as you train ! Keep your eye on the front sight and NEVER depend on luck.....Regard's, Tom Kelly

We've discussed this before, this is what we call today a "flash front sight" and it's what I use to put all 13 .45 rounds in that 4 inch area as fast as I can pull the trigger.....:munchin

Your right and Thank you.

Was somewhat defending Col. Applegate's teaching because it was also called "point shooting". Here is why he named it that.

Before WW2 (and after) Army pistol marksmanship was standing straight up, holding the pistol at arms length with one hand and very carefully placing rounds into a piece of paper by getting both front and rear sights into focus over the long periods of time allowed between shots.

"Point shooting" by Applegate helped change the old military pistol target shooting style of training soldiers to go into combat.