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Mr. Harsey,
For your heat treating of steels after making a blade, could you use a pottery kiln opposed to a specific heat treating furnace, or is there a need for finer temperature control? It seems that pottery kilns are easily found used on craigslist and would save some money. |
Can someone tell me how D2 steel compares to say ATS-34/154-CM in terms of overall strength and durability and ability to hold and edge, sharpen, etc?
I know D2 is not really considered stainless, it doesn't usually have a great looking finish, and has excellent edge holding....but I'm not sure how tough it is or how it's edge holding and difficulty in sharpening is when compared with 154-CM. I guess what I'm getting at is if you had to choose between two identical knives with these two steels, which would you choose and why? Any insight is appreciated. Thanks, Sean |
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You are starting to become an annoyance. From your posts thus far, it appears to me that you do not like to read, follow rules, or do your own research. The Search button is your friend. Stop starting new threads and asking questions you have not yet researched thoroughly. TR |
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You've now started what can only be termed a 'witchhunt' about my 'searching' judging by your post in the "Harsey on the Beach" thread and now this one. Well, let's just lay it all out on the table and you can go about banning me after if you'd like. But, I WILL say my piece. Quote:
Second, this thread is titled: "Knife Steels-Material Science" and would therefore be a good place to post a question discussing the merits of one steel versus another for comparison purposes, don't cha think?? :confused: Third, there are only a very few posts (specifically #38-41) that even really discuss ANYTHING about D2 steel in this thread (we'll get to other threads in a moment). I read this thread a few days ago before I posted in this one at all. I just re-read it again, to see if your accusations had any merit. They do not. My questions were not covered, so I asked. I was taught that the only stupid question is the one you don't ask....if I don't ask, I won't learn anything, especially using this search engine (more on that later as well). Fourth, nowhere in this thread is CPM154 (or 154-CM if you prefer) and D2 steel directly compared; which is why I posted in this thread in the first place. Isn't a question like mine something someone might want to know in the future? Wouldn't a search pop up this thread and help someone else find the answer? I did search. Where do you think I came up with "...D2 is not really considered stainless, it doesn't usually have a great looking finish, and has excellent edge holding..."? Part of it is from what I read here as well as what I researched on the net. And yes, before you go off on my reading comprehension....I realize that you and Mr. Harsey discussed the carbide size requiring a thicker edge, and is therefore harder to get really sharp, but Mr. Harsey still said, "D-2 is a legitimate knife blade steel." and commented that he could still make very good knives from it. What I didn't get from your discussion was any reference point about CPM154 vs. D2. Can you understand where I'm coming from? Fifth, perhaps my search foo is weak? :D This search engine leaves a LOT to be desired. Instead of giving hits on specific posts where the search term is used, it gives entire threads. These threads can be several pages long and it doesn't highlight the search term other than bolding it in white....not very conducive to finding information compared to other software. For example, when I search D2 steel, or D2 vs CPM154 or D2 vs 154-CM using the normal or advanced search engine on this site, I get all kinds of threads....but none of the thread titles short of this one would give any indication that D2 steel vs. CPM154 is the topic of the discussion (and to be fair, this one doesn't either...but it is the most likely one in which material differences would be the topic of conversation). Since I had read the whole thread (twice now) can you recommend a thread I should've looked at for this specific comparison? I didn't even see any with the term "D2" in the title. Sixth, post number 118 is essentially a similar question to my own....but you didn't jump that poor guy for asking it. Why? He's asking the difference between his Randall's stainless steel and CPM-S30V. What's the difference betwen his comment and my own? Seventh, you knew darn well that I wouldn't be able to search for the "pepper" reference I innocently asked about in the Harsey on the Beach thread. Yet you baited me with the question about "search button not working?". I responded as curteously as I could, when I was pretty sure that your tone was not a friendly one just as this latest volley wasn't. My attitude is a direct reflection of your tone. I understand that the written word is a hard medium to convey meaning without misinterpretations, but how else am I supposed to take your comments to me? Look, you've taken a dislike to me. I get it. I'm not sure why, but whatever. I'm reasonably sure you'll say you really don't care and neither do I. I actually enjoy your little jabs at my expense. It's interesting to probe the psyche of someone like you. Let me tell you a little about me now....you might as well ban me (if you have the power) or get me banned by someone who does.....not because I'm going to be rude but b/c I just will not drop the issue. I am the most stubborn person you'll ever have the misfortune of meeting. :D I didn't do anything wrong by asking about "peppers" and I didn't do anything wrong by asking about the differences in two knife steels in this, a knife steel material science thread, and I will not budge on that. Say what you will and ban me if you must. I know whatever you can muster up as "punishment" is really irrelevant anyway....this is just the internet. Lastly, the easiest way to shut me up (short of banning me) is to ignore me. JFYI. If this is the last time I'm allowed to post, have a nice life. If, on the other hand, you want to discuss this further, reply here or PM me....as I'm sure this wasn't the appropriate place for this commentary and it will be deleted, but I thought it only fair that I be given the same public opportunity to rebutt your allegations. Good day, Sean King |
126 Search hits for knife steels.
This is among the first, there are many more, most in this forum: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ht=knife+steel Not reading these threads before asking indicates laziness to me, and your post above a disrespect for authority. Your stubbornness will not be an asset here. Most of the people on this board have better things to do than to rehash the same topics repeatedly, because you want personal attention. The best thing to do when you realize that you are in a hole is to stop digging. There is a lot of info here, for those willing to look for it. The only allegation in my comments was that you do not like to read, follow rules, or do your own research. I stand by that assessment. This is not your board, you are a guest here. Think about it. No response is necessary. TR |
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For a supposed engineer you ain't too smart. When you hit the "search" button it gives you two options, "show threads" or "show posts", if you're having a hard time reading let me know. And for your information the Reaper has the means to ban you in in a Texas heartbeat, that he already didn't must mean he's killed something today and has already satisfied that urge. If he doesn't end up banning you I probably will. It also seems you didn't read the introductions thread either..... I've highlighted something that should interest you... "What Professional Soldiers ® is - The first thing to understand is that site is directed primarily to the Special Forces Soldier, and those interested in the SF life-style. It is our site and if you are not a member of the Special Forces, you are a guest. We welcome discussion - we demand respect be shown to all members and we will show you the same, provided you demonstrate you deserve. Respect is earned not decreed." http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ement.php?f=68 Board rule #7; 7. Think before you post. Post something unintelligent and we’ll let you know. Post something unintelligent twice and you’ll be gone. We ask no quarter and none will be given. http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ead.php?t=3452 Mouth off again and you are gone. Team Sergeant |
Stupid is as stupid does.
Goodbye Sean King. Team Sergeant |
Randall Made Knives use O1 carbon and 440 stainless steels.
Arwr |
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You'd have to contact the Randall Shop to confirm what steels they are using. They may be up to more than we know. |
Grades
Some help please, I didn't want to start a new thread and this looked like it was on target...
Could someone explain to me the difference between the grades or makes of steel ie: 440c 50, 57-59 HRC ect ect ect... looking to buy a good quality fixed blade but never did understand what was good and what was cheaply made.:confused: Thanks in advance for your input... |
You can't go wrong with CPM S30V!! Google it.
This is the steel that the Yarborough is made of. Later Martin |
FMF Doc,
I'm trying hard to not advocate one steel or another here because that gets into whose work I may be seen as promoting or not and that is not my reason for being here. Martin, Thanks! yes we use the CPM S-30V in the Yarborough knife and I really believe in that alloy produced by Crucible Steel here in the USA. Many steels can make a good knife but this depends on if the given steel is heat treated for it's optimum use and what price one is willing to pay for that particular tool. Reputation of maker/manufacturer is important as any steel is only as good as it's optimum heat treat combined with blade geometery. You can have the perfect steel and perfect heat treat but if the blade is too thin or too thick it will not function as needed. A good using knife is a combination of factors. Please forgive me for stating the obvious. |
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Ok, can some let me know how good or bad the specs on this blade are.
Stailess Steel 55-57 HRC hardness rated 6 3/4 I and is 9 2/5 ozs and 11 in overall, or is this just a cheap blade. I realize you get what you pay for and this knife priced for less than $100.00 I'm just looking for something I can use to beat around, maybe carry in the tool box as an extra. Thanks |
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Can you pm me more information on the knife in question? I will respond via pm also. Thanks, Bill |
Bill,
Let me recap the last 2 hours of reading; the Boss is at work, and I walked away from work long enough to really digest the the amazing information in this thread. 1. there are a whole spate of excellent knife steels out there 2. use is a primary consideration in the steel selection 3. 'stainless' does not mean it won't 'rust' 4. The matrix size directly affects the sharpness and possibly the durability of of the edge 5. the addition of various other metals, salts, and nonmetals can directly affect matrix size of the finished product (chemically and physically) 6. The metal continues to change throughout the working process, and that process is tailored to the metal itself so that the physical and chemical changes are going in the correct direction. 7. heat is good, heat is bad 8. cold is good, cold is bad 9. there are changes in the metal during the working process that cause a 'grain' i.e. austentising, martensiting, etc. in the blade itself and this grain is dependent on the annealing, heating, cooling and original chemical (what's in there)/physical (matrix size)/temporal (how long heated and cooled, and change in temperature over time of change) 10. the most exposed area of the metal (actually the sharpened edge) is also the area that is most dependent on the 'stainless' capabilities of the blade - as the atmospheric conditions may cause salts to form that will dull the edge by chemical breakdown. 11. hardness is good, hardness is bad 12. matrix size affects the edge holding and ultimate sharpness of the edge 13. I need to reread this thread to find out how much I missed and still don't know. and finally - you really are a lot smarter than you look, your depth of knowledge amazes me - even about music - but you really need to change that one light bulb in the shop stereo. |
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Take care Brother!!!:D Martin |
x SF med,
I really like your take on things, you speak many truths in ways I would not have thought of. Will look forward to discussing details after the trip to Atlanta. Thank you for the kind words. |
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Bill, Martin- Thanks! I went back through my list after a little sleep, and realized the list above, almost gets one to the point where you can design the blade once you figure out how the knife is going to be used. The design of the knife; edge versus spine thickness; shape of the edge(s); length, depth, breadth of tang; known treating/annealing properties of the metal; re-matrixing; and the grain of the martensiting/austensiting ... may cause reconsideration of the steel used after the prototype is underway, based on the production capabilities if the blade is going into mass, or even in some cases limited production, just from the QC process on each blank prior to final edge shaping and sharpening. Bill... in the words of my concrete busting and pouring buddy, you really just might be a rocket surgeon - I gain more and more respect for you, your craft, the art and the science of your designs the longer I know you. |
Mr Harsey
I am looking at a leatherman Supertool 300 to replace a leatherman I lost over the weekend. I noticed the blade is 420 HC steel as opposed to 154 CM or S30V that you see on some other tools. This tool will see some pretty hard use (farming hunting camping)
Can you tell me about 420 HC? how does it compare? major differences? Thanks |
I went to my old Tac-30 (SWAT) teams annual banquet dinner the other night and a member of the team had made knives with a Kydex scabbard, with engraving on them for people leaving the team. I liked the knife and asked him to make one for me. He does 'Black Dog Knives.' He is/was also a team member and KCSO Deputy.
He said "It will be made from ATS-34, with micarta scales and will include a custom Kydex sheath. " $100 Plus Tax & engraving ($25) depending on the number of letters. He'll engrave the following on the knife as well as the SWAT Logo. LT. My Name TAC-30 Founding Member 1968-1984 The knives that I looked at did look good and had nice thick blade. Is that ATS-34 a good choice? The blade shape looked like a larger version of my PS knife. |
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When all heat treated correctly for knife use 420HC does not have quite the edge holding of 154CM and the next rung up the edge holding ladder is CPM S-30V. |
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First, it was Bob Loveless who revolutionized modern knife making with both his designs and dedication to testing alloys of tool steels for knife use. Loveless found a very high grade of tool steel produced by Crucible Specialty Tool Steels in Syracuse New York called 154CM. This was a big jump forward in knifemaking as it was both a high performance steel and has good stain resistance. Crucible at that time was owned by Colt Industries. Loveless was having some problems sourcing the steel from them, forget if it was pricing or something else but the result was Loveless going to Japan, founding the Japanese Knifemakers Guild on the way, meeting the president of Hitachi Steel and asking him to make a steel with "about the same" ;) chemical composition as 154CM and the result is ATS34 which I have used a lot of in the past. It's good steel. |
Thanks, Bill.
IIRC, Al Mar used quite a bit of ATS34 as well. TR |
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Thank you for this thread Mr. Harsey, it's a great read. Being a knife lover the chemical make up of blade steel has fascinated me. GO CPM S30 V! :D I especially like your explanations on what goes on at the molecular level during the heating and cooling processes with respects to freezing it in the ideal configuration. I hope this is even relevant but it made me think of a time I was fortunate enough to have a plane ride next to a guy that worked with NASA in the carbon fiber area and he was explaining to me (among other fascinating things) the differences in the molecular structure of a diamond carbon molecule as opposed to the I guess you could say "spun fiber" carbon molecule (carbon fiber) they use (not your average carbon fiber) as well as the individual strengths. What are your thoughts on or what have you heard/read about the possible applications of such molecular manipulation of carbon molecules for the making of blades? Not sure if I'm out in left field with this... I was also wondering if you have any knowledge of the OU-31 steel that Kikuo Matsuda employs and what your take is? I love the look of his work but haven't foot the bill for one yet. Thanks again for the great thread.
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Knifemakers opinion
Well, after hours of reading this post I still don't know how you choose the material if you like a shape of a knife for ex. in a web shop. Many knife brands choose the material for the knife instead of you for the use of the knife they make. Many steel producers make almost the same steel material in different names. Uddeholm, Böhler, etc. are famous steel factories and most of knife makers are choosing from they steels according the meaning of the knife. I am a knife maker too and also I am choosing different material for an assault knife than the survival one. Assault knife I make harder for ex. around 62 HRC, survival knives I make around 58 HRC just for easy sharpening in field. Harder material harder to sharpen but the edge takes longer, and via. So, I mean if you order knife from knifemakers they will offer from they available materials the best for your needs, but if you fall in love with a knife on the internet you have no chance to choose, just if you order a copy from a maker. I say that if the blade is for fight choose material around 62-63 HRC (never go over, may break in field) or if the blade is for common knife use search for 58-59 HRC hard material. No meaning for the name of steel. My best blades I made from recycled materials. (ball bearings, car springs, chainsaw chain) Good heat treating is the most necessary, the best material could be bad without a good heat treating.
The points of choosing knife (and material): hardness, stainless -or not, shape (full tang I prefer) and thickness, sharpening and cleaning attributes, handle material, love it or not. That simple. Would it be the hardest and greatest material if you cannot sharpen by yourself. (There is another knowledge for sharpening...) There is no best steel material for knives, just difference for uses. There is no bad knife, just bad hand for it... Bill, this is not for You, I know You know all about that. Sorry for the poor english... |
Gentlemen,
I want to personally thank everybody who contributed to this topic! As a senior materials engineering student, this information has been invaluable to some real world scenarios and examples of materials science at work. Progressing through the pages of pure gold here, "I now know what I don't know".. V/R LD |
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Sorry for the delay in responding, very bad manners on my part. Welcome to the knife area and if you would like, please post pictures of some of your knives here. I would like to see them. Your english is much better than my Finnish or Sami. We will talk more about steel hardness soon. |
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Good news we haven't screwed up your work yet too. We have access to a few metallurgists if you might need more help. |
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Wow, good plane ride! My only experience with carbon fiber is to cut, drill and grind then complain when some chunk of it came from aerospace because it is much tougher to cut, drill and grind. I have no knowledge of the OU-31 steel and this does not mean it isn't good steel. As Oditker points out, there are many manufacturers of tool and bearing quality steels and each make many alloys. We have to find ways to shorten up the list we draw from but it doesn't mean we aren't paying attention. |
Mr. Harsey,
Like many people who have posted before me, I am intrigued by the material science and engineering aspects of knife manufacturing. Reading through my texts books and pages in this thread, I'm beginning to realize that I now know much less than previously realized. After using the search button, I could not find any information located on this website about the matter; I am curious, if metallic glasses (or bulk metallic glasses in particular) have ever been a viable option for knife design? |
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Often I feel like I don't know enogh to have gotten this far and also ask a couple of good metallurgists, like the one who developed CPM S-30V, to review my writing here to make sure I'm not screwing up. Haven't yet heard of metallic glasses being used for knifemaking. I know that there are ceramic blades, ruby, obsidian and glass with some modern applications. If there is anything better than steel for making a knife out of, haven't heard about it yet. Yes there are materials that get sharper than steel, like obsidian but obsidian has very little resistance to fracture or "toughness'. Some good ceramics have much more fracture resistance than obsidian but are still subject to catastrophic failure when used hard. Also of note, any material we use has to be relatively affordable. If something starts costing hundreds (or more) dollars per lb. Then we have another problem. Some can take a broken glass window and make something that will open an animal and get to the food part. Here is one of mine... |
Mr. Harsey,
I'd be more than willing to share some academic presentations on the topic of Bulk Metallic Glasses. From my brief knowledge on the topic, it seems that the applications of the amorphous metal alloys such as Vitreloy, will be something that is going to explode in the next decade. |
greyfox,
Are you talking about stuff like Liquidmetal? |
Mr. Harsey,
After a quick google search, it seems that one of the leading commercial companies of BMG's is in fact Liquid Metal; so in short, yes. In class we had only discussed the recent technological developments within the BMG field, not any of the manufacturers, so please forgive me if we've arrived at my original question in a somewhat round-about manner. |
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Bill, I can help some on this subject.
I worked with Liquid Metal for awhile back in the 90s. Built several knives from it and wasn't impressed. The least bit of heat while grinding would make weak spots. It was difficult to put a decent finish on and you could never get that "sharp" edge when sharpening. I still have a few pieces on hand, as a historical thing. The maker that brought it forward isn't using it anymore. It can cause some medical problems that are hazardous. http://www.liquidmetal.com/applicati...p.sporting.asp Also, do a Wiki search and read about Gallium and skin absorption. If it's the future, I'm going back to school to learn plumbing or carpentry.. |
Tactical Knives just did an article on Crucible's CPM-S35VN and noted that Chris Reeve had a hand (probably a whole arm and most of a leg or two) in it's formulation. From the write up the Niobium looks to have reduced the grain size, increased the uper limit for hardening, and really reduced chipping - tighter austensiting and martensiting is what appears to be the effect of the Niobium Carbides... Chris has already made a few knives from it, I'd love to get a chance to see how it sharpens and holds an edge.
Bill- any thoughts on Crucible's newest addition? |
Kit,
Thanks for the help, info and warnings. I've heard that the Liquidmetal is prone to micro fracture and then rapid fracture propagation and that is reason enough for me to stay well away from using it. x SF med, Your quite correct on all counts. I'm just starting to make some test blades out of the CPM S-35VN and am interested in seeing how it works. I think it's going to be good stuff. |
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