OK, it was never a valid tool.

Most shooters do not possess the strength to shoot for hours; this is a huge factor when training individuals, to know when they have had enough. This is also an enormous factor when they start to miss and wonder why. 99.9% of the “instructors” I've watched have NEVER told anyone "you’re tired" and that's why you are throwing shots everywhere.
(Next time you teach or watch a group of twelve or so individuals shooting watch closely for 30 minutes. At about the 30 minute mark many will start to throw rounds everywhere.
(This does not apply if the students are “barrel chested freedom fighters”, competition shooters, or some SWAT teams. These individuals usually have the requisite upper body strength required to shoot for hours without a serious degradation of marksmanship.)

When I teach one of the first things I do to "students" is ask them to shake my hand and attempt to "crush" my hand. It’s not a test of "manlihood", I use it as a "gage" to check upper body strength and grip. It also tells me how long they will be able to shoot before fatigue starts to set in.

Something else I ask students, "who here is ready to run a marathon right now?"
Normally no one answers "I can". I then ask why? The answers usually are all the same, preparing for a marathon takes months of conditioning, hours of running per day, time to strengthen the legs, lungs, harden the mind etc. Then I tell them "so does shooting a pistol straight after 20 minutes."

Most individuals arms start to "fatigue" and "fail" after 20-30 minutes and there’s no way in hell they are going to have any semblance of accuracy left after this time. This is where the instructors I've watched make their biggest mistakes, trying to "fix" an individuals problem when, at that moment, it cannot be fixed. This is where I would make an educated guess that many instructors use the "wheel" to try to explain the individuals’ problem, when in fact all they need is rest.

I also ask how many times do they think Tiger Woods has "swung" his driver in order to become number one in the world? Want to be a great shooter, all one needs to do is put in the time. Learn how to do it right the first time and then its all about practice, conditioning etc.

There is more than one individual on this board that can place a pistol bullet through the same hole, not a shot group, the same hole at 5-7 meters. They know what it takes and they also know it takes practice, a lot of dry firing, and more practice to accomplish this feat all day long, every time.

Team Sergeant

LOL - you guys are killing me with all this "Old way doesn't work anymore". We can agree to disagree.

The wheel is not for the shooter, the wheel is a memory aid for the coach. The shooter should never be allowed to see it.;) It is also not all inclusive - for example: A right-handed shooter in a combat stance will shoot low left when he closes his off eye. But not every time. And not much. And only if he has his off foot forward.

TS and TR are right of course. The biggest mistakes most people make are going too fast and/or learning the skill poorly. Imperfect practice is worse than useless.

You posted while I was writing. I agree 100% about the being tired. I also agree most don't see it or recognize it as a factor. Excellent post.

Right, that's it! 5-7 meters tightest 5 shot group, I'll use your weapon and only five rounds....... Be forewarned I had an SF Medic that bet me I could not beat his "best", he's still cutting my lawn.:D

It's also no longer taught in FM 3-23-35. A fairly good FM IMO. (All those that cannot hit the water if they fell off the boat need to read this manual.;))

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-35/index.html

PB, Great link.

OK lets discuss the Wheel, where would anyone like to start?

I said "Almost ready" Team Sergeant.;)

Yes, the FM is a good one, I refer to it frequently.

kgoerz and I are not only training students, we are developing Instructors. We had 28 students and 21 Instructors in the last class. At the same time. It was "intresting". We are always looking for graphic representations that will help them.

I rarely shoot tightest group, I probably should do it more. Most of our training focuses on a red circle (we use a Copenhagen can for a template) pasted where a tango's heart would be if they had one. From the holster with an M4 hanging in front. Oh, and eyes. I like eyes. Nice and squishy. If one of ours ever puts 5 in one hole, I'll slap him on his helmet, hang a shotgun and ram off of him and make him go faster.:lifter :D

Nice touch!

so what you are telling me is that somebody finds a crutch for a left handed guy online and now it's outdated...:D

actually, your point makes sense...as far as the quoted point, you show up in town and i'll buy a pitcher of whatever you're drinking...;)

Ahhhh - no not really. I'm actually closer to NDDs opinion than I am to TS's. What we have here is a bunch of Type "A" (blind) personalities "describing the elephant". Everybody is right as far as they go but there is more to the picture than the effort of typing on the internet is worth. There are enough legitimate, high quality training tips already on this board to create an uber gunfighter if the aspirant can put it all together. (That's easier said than done.) The experts who have posted all have their strengths and their personal preferences. That's why I made the "pitcher" comment. I always learn something valuable in a bull session - and it's not always what I expected or even something I'm comfortable about.

FWIW - I'm left handed and I've been using the "wheel" (both versions) as a personal and coaching tool for 25+ years. Peregrino

this is the first i've seen of the wheel...i am interested in these techniques, although i need to find the time to try them...

many good points have been made here...i really don't see much i disagree with (having never tried the wheel before)...

i wholeheartedly agree that informal sessions among capable people can result in cross-fertilization and experimentation...i've also learned quite a bit at these sessions...

of course, one nice thing about the range at Bad Toelz is you could zero in the morning, fire a few tables for practice, have a pitcher with lunch at the Rod and Gun and not do too well at record fire in the afternoon...or at least i heard that...:D

I like the lack of heart comment. :D

Good thread gents. I can use this for my classes, after the next deployment of course. ;)

I have the greatest respect for those of you that share knowledge of shooting skills and we all learn from your experience.
Points I learned from TS: (based on your level of 'expertise') and I use this in the operating room....its an analogy to the QPs and their honed shooting skills: slower is faster, efficiency breeds speed, speed alone leads to mistakes (and misses).
The most skilled surgeon that are 'fast' with the moves in the O.R. are not fast, just efficient, no wasted moves and this appears as speed when compared to the novice that performs 15 moves for my 3....NDD unconsciously has 7 of his 8 fundamentals hardwired, he may need to 'think' about only 1.
I'm sure you guys know the compentency stages of tasks:
- unconsciously incompetent
- consciously incompetent
- consciously competent
- unconsciously competent....this is where TS, NDD and others are speaking from.
Once you attain the zen (thank you TR), you have attained the level of unconsciously competent....it is without obvious thought that the task is completed correctly......forget 10,000 TS, more like > 100,000 ??

RL, I wrote down the TS's dry fire routine he gave me....I have to find it at home and I'll pass it along...it works.

ss

Excellent post Syd.

I was reviewing the competency stages last night.

I once saw, and can't remember what it was called "somebody's Law" or something similar about the number of experiences and how they relate to learning. kind of hard to explain.

Cincy - I saw a thread mentioning it once on TPI - do you know what i'm talking about?

You sure you weren't in 10th Group? Or the SEALs? :eek:

Thanks, I didn't write it down, but I do it. Why don't you just post it so everyone can benefit?

ahem...and remind me, Counsel, which group were you in????:rolleyes: