Rucksacks
 

This is even before TR's time!! ;)

Anyone remember the Mountain Rucksack??

BMT

Had one. And the Jungle Ruck.

Still have the Jungle Ruck frame around here somewhere.

TR

130 lbs? How far did you hump with 130 lbs on your back? We never let anyone carry more than 100 lbs. The heaviest load I can remember was Davy Pills loading his pack to 120lbs and the TS (Tiny Young) told him to get it down below 100 lbs. Davy didn't listen and he got a severely sprained ankle on infill. Pissed us all off 'cause we had to break down all his team gear and our packs just got heavier before we could even move off of the DZ.

I tried to give you a piece of friendly advice about how to conduct yourself when in someone elses home and I get a smartassed reply out of it.

I will leave you to one of the owners next time. I can assure you they wont be as pleasant and understanding as I.

Crip

One of these??

http://www.atthefront.com/us_gear_mtn_ruck_back.jpg

Learning the hard way
 

Crip,

FWIW, I asked Trent about the 130 lbs as you suggested. Apparently, so the story goes, in the infinite wisdom of SOPC 2, no one bothered to cross load the 240 ammo and he had the gunner's job. About two miles into the FTX, the instructors got tired of yelling at him for falling behind and went to investigate. . . so it goes.

Books.

I had Willie at General Jacksons mod my Kifaru XTL to fit my large ALICE. It works great and I have a moded top on the ALICE as well (claymore pouch & RTO zipper).

Willie added two straps to the top of the ALICE with male FASTEX connectors. This required changing the top connectors on the XTL to female FASTEXs (the XLT does not come with female FASTEX on the top but does on the bottom).

Willie then added two straps with male FASTEXs on the lower front of the ALICE pack near where the normal top cinch down straps are. It's a very easy mod.

I haven't had a chance yet to carry it under load but I did fill up the ALICE to check it out. It works well. :)


With this approach you don't have to cut the existing top cinch straps and if you want to remove the XTL you still have a fully functional ALICE pack.

With the four extra FASTEX connectors on the ALICE pack, any number of smaller packs can now be adapted to piggy back on the ALICE. Just add 4 extra female FASTEXs to the pack and strap it on.


Willie is adding this mod to my medium ALICE pack as well so I can share the XTL between them.

Hey Tony, glad to hear that the XTL is working well on your ALICE pack. I've always heard nothing but good things about Willie's ALICE pack mods. That link you posted from our message board isn't working since we upgraded our board, so here is a new link to that thread with the pics:

http://forums.kifaru.net/ubbthreads....ge=3#Post14849

Mel

Kifaru XTL Mods
 

I finally got a chance to take some pictures of the Kifaru XTL on the ALICE. First you have to convert the top connector on the XTL to a 1" female Fastex:

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/xtl1.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/xtl2.jpg

Now you need to sew 1" male Fastexs on the ALICE ruck. I did this to both my large ALICE and meduium ALICE packs (well Wille at General Jacksons did!).

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/topxtl.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/backxtl.jpg


The XTL will attach nicely to the ALICE even if you have a claymore pouch on the top flap of the ALICE pack.

Here are some views of the XTL on my large ALICE.

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/back2mods.jpg

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/front.jpg

With this ALICE mod you can also attach a patrol pack:

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/ppmod.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/pptop.jpg

I also moded an M-1967 sleeping bag carrier to use the 4 atachment points:

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/m1967.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/m1967top.jpg


My ALICE large ruck has a long side pocket, a short side pocket & 2 qt canteen tiedown, a 7" compression bag on the bottom, a mediun pouch in the middle, a claymore pouch on the top, the RTO zipper on the top, carying handle, re-enforced stitching, and a storm flap with a rto zipper. Buckles converted to FASTEX. Mods were done by Willie at General Jacksons & by Tactical Tailoring.

I use Spec OPs HUMP on the inside of the frame to carry a water bladder. Tactical Tailor super straps & waist belt round it out. I like it a lot. I have a desert camo cover that hides all the green if needed (and a white cover for snow as well).

ACU or OD
 

A question for you gentlemen,

I didn't think starting a new thread for this would be a good idea so I tacked it on here I hope that is all right.

I am looking at buying a Tactical Tailor MALICE 3 and adding an HSGI Ali Pad to it. My question is should I buy said gear in OD green or should I buy it in ACU. I much prefer OD but I am just trying to figure out which is the best idea for the future. I don't want to buy this stuff and never get to use it cause the Army has stopped allowing OD as a color for gear or something along those lines which I could envisage with big green weenie radar.

Thoughts and opinions? Thank you in advance.:lifter

Atilla

You aren't in the Army yet. The Army will probably change patterns again by the time you need it, and will issue you a ruck then in the appropriate color at the CIF.

A good officer generally should use the same gear his soldiers do, not look like some tactical Gucci model.

Buy whatever you want for now.

TR

Personally, I'd hold off on the purchase until I got through all the entry-level courses and reported to my new unit. Until then, you'll be issued what you need (note the difference between need and want) to get the job done.

I recommend that you buy your gear in OD or sand colors and stay away from the digi crap. That way you can supplement your gear with Krylon for added camo patterns (whether it's black, white, or green.).

I tend to repaint my gear for hunting every year depending on if I'm hunting in CO in snow, or in brush in TX.

This is some great advice. Save your nickels for now. A lot of units will want you to use there issued items. You won't need anything more than the standard Alice for a long time.

Doesn't matter now...
 

No matter what you buy now, you're going to hate it after you carry a real load for more miles than you what. It just need s to be able to handle about 120 lbs max. Love it, Blitzzz

I think I probably should have been more descriptive of my intentions for this gear. It's main use for right now will be personal i.e. camping, hunting, humping etc. I spent a long time looking at some of the high speed stuff from Arcteryx and Kifaru. However this stuff is pricey and it occurred to me that I should get something that I at least might have a chance of getting to use in the Army. I figured it would be best to get something that is closest to the issued gear that my soldiers would be using as TR pointed out. So I settled on the MALICE 3 (I like the separate compartment for the sleeping system, which is one of the only things I liked about the Molle system.) Now this is where I run into the dilemma which may derail my desire to kill two birds with one stone. I have never seen an ACU Alice pack and worry if i get one that if I did want to use it I would appear like the Gucci model TR warned against but if I get OD i will just have an Alice pack like everyone else with a couple of extra pockets. Have you gents seen a switch to ACU Alice would that be a good investment for a personal pack that I might get to use for work. If my gear didn't meet unit standards it would be no biggie cause i would just use the issued gear. Just trying to hedge my bets in the direction that might best facilitate the possibility of using my personal stuff at some point in the future. Again this gear is mostly for personal use right now. Basic question is do you gentlemen think that the Army will ever embrace ACU Alice packs?

Razor and COB2A you both made a good point about saving the dough but I have saved up for this purpose (getting myself a good field pack to use on weekend excursions and for conditioning hikes) and the color choice is just so, as I mentioned, I can possibly use it at a later date.

Stras you raised an interesting idea to me though. Is there a type of gear paint that you gents know of or use that can be removed at a later date. If so then I could go with ACU and always paint it Ranger green or OD green if the situation dictated it. Cant really go the other way, would be hard to paint on ACU pattern.

Thank you for taking the time to help me figure this out. Not trying to be a Gucci model just trying to make a sound investment that may prove useful in more than one area.

Atilla

My suggestion - get a standard Large Alice pack with standard straps, frame, waist pad. It's a good ruck and will serve you well. There are some riggers (there was a good guy at Gen Jackson's @ Ft. Bragg) that do mods on rucks if you want to add extra pockets.

If you show up at a new unit/job with a completely modified ruck, "your soldiers" will notice.

Like Blitzz said, get used to carry heavy loads or medium loads to get your shoulders, and back in shape. I'd avoid jumping right into the heavy loads and trying to run with a ruck on.

Thank you Koz,

Part of the reason I am wanting to get an Alice is because I do have experience with them and I always liked them. They are dependable and have stood the test of time. In an effort to offer something pertinent to this thread (I feel bad for kind of highjacking it for the advice you gents are supplying) I would like to add something to think about in regards to the original intent. One thing to consider when choosing a pack in the current environment of operations is to consider how easy it is to rig up to a vehicle. The Molle was abysmal in this regard because the plastic frame would always crack when things got dicey and the vehicle (HUMVEE, LAV, Bradley, etc.) would have to bug out over some rough terrain. We used to use the large D shaped vehicle bolt and catch (cant remember for the life of me right now the nomenclature) and run them through the frame, needless to say the Alice was much better suited to this. I know the majority of the consideration on this site revolves around humping a rig but I just thought it would be relevant to add this other important aspect to the consideration of which packs best suit which situation.

Large ALICE
 

Attila,

I've used my standard Army Issue ALICE pack (Large, OD Green, type 1 each) for the last 20 years and swear by it. That new MOLLE abortion pack starts off at 30 lbs, and the frigging chest strap is 3 feet long (WHO needs a 3 foot chest strap???). The plastic frame breaks in extreme cold. it sucks!!

The only additions I've made are several additional pockets sewn on by General Jacksons (2 claymore, 2 medium, and 2 large). I've had to replace the frame once in 20 years due to a baaaaaad jump (bent the frame all to hell). I also have a LOWE ruck top flap that I use for extra gear when the weather dictates a little heavier load. Plus it holds a M240B in place on an exercise, but that's beside the point (Blitz did mention the 130lb infil ruck).:eek::eek:

I've used braided 550 cord for the handle on the ruck and the carabiner for years. makes it handy to hang on a scale to check your weight as well. Buy extra straps whenever you see them. Excess of 100lbs tends to wear out the quick releases, though a flexcuff will solve the issue temporarily.

Keep the waist strap on your ALICE. We used to cut them off back in the day, but it comes in handy when you are skiing with your ALICE. If you don't like the straps, just tape them up out of the way.

I use boflage for painting my gear and guns, (it's a flat semi permanent paint). some of the surplus stores will carry it. the kit usually consists of 3 different colors, and a fake leaf for patterns (sand and OD are the two kits I use religiously), and augment with white paint for winter camo, and some white medical tape. If you use Krylon, make sure you get the FLAT colors and not the shiny.

If you are rucking, start with low weight and distance. 35 - 45lbs dry weight at a nice walking pace once or twice a week will toughen your feet up so you can increase your distance (start with 3 miles, and move up 2-3 miles a week). From experience, running with a ruck will lead to medical issues further down the road for you. Short distance spurts are better than a long jog. I recommend not running with one. but it's your choice if you want to walk when you're in your 60's or not.

Stras sends
De Oppresso Liber

Dead On Stras,
My Large ALICE has served me quite well over the years (with a few modifications). However, I did carry a 2nd Gen LOWE for several years and loved it. Only problem was you could OVERPACK the beast. The 1st Gen LOWE was made of Cordura and was a bit heavy to start. 2nd Gen was made of ripstop nylon and was much lighter. I did have to double-stitch most of the critical seams but she held up through thick and thin all those years as an SO living out of her for 5 days at a whack. These new Molle rucks are so heavy and complicated, mine hasn't even seen the light of day since it was issued. I still depend on my LOWE most of the time but the ALICE is right there if the mission dictates.

That's it right there. Good old Alice Pack and get it modified at Gen Jackson's. Increase the top flap size and replace velcro with zipper. Replace the 3 mag holder with a large claymore pouch and the other two pouches for the top 2 corners. Fastex clips to replace the old snap buttons. Nothing has beat that setup for me. I just got issued the new Mystery Ranch pack the other day at my unit but there is something about having humped the Alice for the last 10 years in Ranger, SUT, Sage, etc... where you just know where everything is at and can get to it in complete darkness. I'm going to hump it tomorrow night instead of the new assault pack I was issued.

and for what it's worth. Just buy your own and modify it. It's totally worth it and you can do whatever you want to it and leave the CIF issue one in with the rest of the crap you gotta clean and turn in.

I love this guy! He is my hands-down-favorite wannabe.
#1 He's gonna do what he wants no matter what we recommend. #2 Sure you don't want to skip that "Robin Sage 'G'" experience and go for the Effective Writing class? ACTIVE VOICE. #3 Anyone else go all "Emo" over color schemes?

I just can't get over on you Dozer. I wondered how long it would be before you showed up to put me in my place. I don't think I shared a decision on the matter, just rounding up opinions, which I am always very grateful for. Isn't that the idea, I get advice and opinions and then make decisions for myself, I figured we are all grown men here and no one would get especially butt hurt over my asking about rucksacks in a thread titled rucksacks, guess I was wrong. You are right about passive voice, I have a horrible habit of using it too heavily. Ill be sure to check into the Maybeiline, I certainly don't want my mascara running in the field. If you don't mind I'd like to ask you if its me in particular that you are opposed to or just the way I ask my questions?
:lifter

At this point I am going to give you the normal advice that is handed out here to someone in your position.

Read more, Type less

Atilla, lighten up. I do it because you let me. KKHH:boohoo
Butt hurt? :confused: I never heard that one before. Is that sort of like "pain in the ass"?
It kind of surprises me, too. I've been accused of being the GO TO GUY if you want a little encouragement or need to hear "ahhh-go-ahead-do-it-if-you-want-it-enough". Don't get me going on my "They" rant!*
It must be something special about you. Wanna mentor?:) Maybe we can make that Special.

*BTW "They" tapped out on the annoying littte thing with me!:lifter Beers in the trunk!

Usually try to follow that protocol and try to ask questions I haven't seen addressed. My last post was my attempt to respond to Dozers desire for me to grab ahold of my sack more often and not offend him with flattery (he has been subtly pushing to do this). Sorry if it offended. :lifter

At the risk of further irritating Dozer (or any of the other gents here who I seem to rub the wrong way). I wanted to give you all an AAR on what I decided. I ordered a Malice 3 and had them add some PALS webbing as well as the RTO zipper. I have humped the Alice long distances with heavy loads before and just couldn't get away from the established bond created from embracing the suck with the big green tick on my back (Also, as I mentioned before, I humped the Molle but couldn't stand it so all the reaffirmation about the Alice is really what sold me). Also ordered an XLT from Kifaru and asked both TT and Kifaru to add the necessary clips that Aoresteen suggested for the mod. Already have an Alipad from HSGI. Ordered it all in OD based on what Stras pointed out which made a lot of sense. It's basically the same setup Aoresteen has so I thank him for taking the time to share his info. We were never allowed to carry modded rucks in LAR so I never invested in a personal one which is partly why i found this thread really informative and I learned some stuff that I didn't know before. Now I have purchased one and however it plays out I will have a solid pack for personal use. Really excited about it and already planning a wilderness excursion with some buddies to break it in. Thanks again for all the advice gents. I apologize for any irritation caused, but I feel like you all helped me make a better informed decision and wanted to let you all know the end state.

Atilla

Dozer if I ever get the privilege of sharing some beer with you there is no way that (and this is according to protocol) I would be able to drink beer paid for from your coffers until I provide some purchased from my own.:lifter

KKHH, TTFN

please stop talking like a cadet who is excited to use acronyms. One of the new guys in my Company said "hooah" the other day (and not in the sarcastic SF way.) You could have heard a pin drop from the open team room doors. I even saw faces of confusion.

Atilla,

As I've mentioned in my previous recommendation to you, stop being "that guy" who has to express everything that is in his head. We are all glad that you are motivated, but you are going down the road of making a name for yourself as a "chatty cadet." Just stay in your lane, take advises and recommendations, take ass chewings in stride, and stop posting to explain everything. This one simple phrase will save you much troubles and heartaches in the Army, and in life, "No excuses." End it at that unless someone presses for clarification. Otherwise, you are just going to be a target for others.

Again, enthusiasm and motivation is good...to a point. Sometimes quiet professionalism is better.

Well, FWIW, you asked about Blackhawk, so I will give you my experience. I was fortunate enough that my unit allowed optional gear before deploying to Iraq. There weren't a lot of gear companies at the time, and even less that had a web site you could order from. So I went with Blackhawk. I ordered this pack: http://www.tactical.com/sof-ruck-pac...hannelid=FROOG

I carried about 100# in Iraq, give or take 10# depending on state of resupply or which gear was spread-loaded to me. This pack performed really well. In fact, I still have it, and it continues to hold up and perform well. The major complaint I have with it is that the shoulder straps are too thin, but that is easily remedied.

I will add a cautionary note, though: Typical of Blackhawk's generally inconsistent quality, I spoke to someone who had the complete opposite experience with theirs. It fell apart at around 70# at the yoke as it attaches to the frame. Blackhawk replaced it for free, but remember, YMMV.

Otherwise, the pouches are set up really nicely, the side pouches will carry 2 60mm mortar rounds or 1 81mm mortar round OR 1 hydration bladder each. Top flap pouch will hold a Claymore kit, etc. Zero issues with the zippers failing or the fastex buckles.

Hope this helps.

Edited because my computer-fu is weak.

Not unheard of...
 

Happened to me many a time during SUT...cross load sometimes happened sometimes didn't. Most of the time the biggest guys (me) carried the biggest loads and I remember one specific incident where I finally raised my hand and asked for a weight and the weights ranged from 90 to 120 lbs, mine being 120. Right, wrong, indifferent...who knows? We all get through it somehow.


BTW, anyone have any good luck with London Bridge's Ruck? Its suspension system looks like that of an actual mountaineering pack yet still retains a "true" ruck design...

http://www.londonbridgetrading.com/m...6-F14477786204

The other thing that you guys going through the course, or pondering about putting in your packet may want to think about. Is your high speed low drag rucksack made by "company X" approved to jump either static line or MFF? And I'm not talking is it approved by the company that makes it. You may want to research USASOC Reg 350-2 (Airborne Training, 4 Jun 08), FM 3-05.211(MFF) and FM 3-21.220(SL Operations, Sep 2003) for further info which cover airborne operations and research some safety of use messages.

It would suck to spend all that money on a nice ruck, and then not be able to use it in the woods. :boohoo

Just something for you to think about........:munchin

Great thread.
Now I only was SWAT Cop and ran Field Training Program. That menas I had to supervise all the new recruist who had all the answers. It prepared me to be a father. LOL I notice some things are exactly the same between LE and SF
1. Keep mouth shut and do as told
2. Use gear issued until you know the difference. Anyone showing up with modified kit is looked at as Geek and potential problem
3. Dont stand out as having answers until questions are asked. You dont know and they dont wnat to hear your opinions.

I really enjoy this website. I dont post much because most often the questions asked are not for me. I get alot of great information here. Funny as LE Sniper I used medium Alice for about twenty years and loved it. Now I have a dozen rucks and dont put enough miles on any of them.

Back to reading

Not necessarily so with #2.
 

Tacticalinterve, Item number two is a bit false. one would not be looked at as a geek for bringing in new type stuff. Innovation is always scrutinized for it's good potential.. Off times many improvements come from down to up. The user will always find a better modification to make our hardships a bit easier if possible with no loss to mission capabilities.

Blitzz, your saying a guy going to a Q Course would not be given a second strange look for non standard gear? I dont mean a guy already through selection I mean brand spankin new guy. If so I guess I am wrong but reading here it sure seems to support my theroy

You referenced LE and SF
 

You made no mention of Q course. There as far as I know there is no other than issued equipment. At least there wasn't in '68. Training is pretty much always well defined as to what will and will not be taken.

Things change.

TR

In order to not give an advantage to other soldiers going through the SFQC, you are only allowed issued items currently. the issued item is a Large Alice Ruck with NO extra pockets.

The cadre for each phase will have the latest packing list, which will clearly identify what you are allowed to have.

Brings back memories of my youth. Blue skies, German beer, humping the bergs with the generator stuffed in the 1942 vintage Mountain Ruck.:p