Reading through this thread makes me wonder if I could even fire a pistol anymore, it's been 10 yrs since I last did range time, and it was 2 yrs before that that I did a lot of firing. I do remember that a lot of technique came back after about 3 mags. I did notice that after that it all fell into place, sight over barrel with botheyes open, and squeeze as the picture 'felt' right - no holes in holes, but decent groups just left of the sternum, consistently. Tried a few headshot groupings - and found I would not wwant to go after a moving BG for headshots. Point is, this thread makes me homesick for the range - pistol and rifle.

I am saying this. If your barrel is pointed into the middle of the target when the shot is fired, your bullet will go into the middle of the target.

You know it is pointed there because your eyes see it is pointed there.

You then pull the trigger without pointing it somewhere else.

Or if you are in the zone, your finger moves when your eyes see. Train your eyes to see and your finger to move. It is that simple and unless someone is trying to write a book for profit, they will tell you exactly what I just told you. Be they an Olympic Gold Medal winner, a hunter, or a combat rifleman (who knows what he is doing).

Oh yes, if you believe you must do eight things perfectly, then you must do eight things perfectly at once. I believe you must do one thing perfectly at once. Conditon the finger to move when the eye sees.

Bottom line is this -- what is easier. Doing eight things, four things, or one at one time?

Gene

Polar Bear is going to need medicating after that one Gene. LOL

Do a search wasp nest poker.

Post again in this thread and I'll ban you so fast Google won't be able to lead you back here.

Ouch!!! wound up Huge slap to the back of the brain pan, will the boy take the hint and stay down??? I hope so, if he wants to stay on the board, and not have NDD go medieval on his young ass. (badcarma - yes, this is a hint to slink away, quietly, with your tail between your legs, before you really catch the wrath of khan)

NDD:

It was easy. I treat female soldiers the same way I treat male soldiers. As Professionals at Arms.

Females have better fine motor skills so generally make more consistent marksmen than men.

Females have difficulty in dealing with the pressure of time combined with demanded performance. This one I haven't figured out quite yet.

Female soldiers are extremely competitive. This is an advantage.

They kept telling us that they appreciated our 'simplicity' in communicating concepts and 'individual coaching' techniques. We kept telling them that we aren't doing anything different with them than the men. They didn't believe us but it is the absolute truth.

Some female shooter on PS please give me some feedback as this is most confusing.

NDD - we did a great Stress Test with them today that included shooting and treating a casualty. Had a couple of combat experienced NCOs and Officers set up a Mulage scenario that went in stride with our stress fire. Worked out pretty damn well. And that from us -- an 18A retired dinasour Mo-Fo with a couple of tough SSG 11B's.

The whole week was an extremely interesting and quite satisfying experience. I really got a kick out of working with these particular soldiers. C Co. 202 BSB, 4/2 SBCT. Quite a bunch of real characters.

Will comment on your post to me tomorrow when I am rested please. We are far more in agreement than any disagreement.

Gene

Ah so, they were female. We've had three come through and I agree with your assessment completely. Sounds like great training.

See you tomorrow. Have a good night.

Gene,

One of my thoughts, is that many new shooters what a simple sure way, or a short cut that is guaranteed to have 100% results. Techies will say the newest and latest gizmo will do that. From my experience and what I have read it takes really good training from people who know, while there is no guarantees that you will walk aways, the odds are good. Nothing can replace the art of training when it becomes natural as scratching your nose. As you said 8 becomes one. There are no sort cuts, nor some technical advantage that can be substituted for skill. Skill can only come by hard work and competent instruction.

H.

Frayed knot. :p

Gene Thank you for the answer

NDD I had to read it twice

Yo -- LK:


Took a look at that wheel thing on that PDF file. They got the 'hand' backwards. The one that says 'left handed shooter' is really for right handed shooters and vice versa.

We have one of these in GTA format next to our urinals. Put up by a former cadre of ours. Big GTA -- about two foot square so big enough that I can read it while pissing.

That wheel thing more relates to one hand firing of the pistol than two. Put two hands on the pistol and that wheel really doesn't work too well.

My biggest problem with such devices is that they tells a fellow everything he is doing wrong instead of telling him what to do right.

I troubleshoot human error using ball and dummy to see where the barrel moves on the shot, and then isolate the part of the body causing that movement. Normally some adjustment in position followed by mental discipline gives a fix. After it is fixed enough to gain confidence that it is fixed, it becomes a mental discipline issue.

This whole thing is more of a mental game than a physical one. Fun though.

Gene

if you are looking at the wheel while you are pissing, how can you hit the Hillary urinal target...? or J*** F****...?

the truth is, i've never seen the wheel, never did that much off-hand pistol shooting...i am curious about learning and teaching aids and when i have the chance, especially if i find something that's cheap (read free), i'll try it out before i send it to the land fill...

The only teaching aid I use, besides targets, is a snap cap.

Come down to Phoenix (during the winter/spring) and I'll take you out for free.;)

TS

you are invalidating 22 years of GTA-based training and instruction...:D

the more i look at the wheel, the more i think using it as a target might be entertaining...
hell, when is it winter in Phoenix...?
i couldn't impose...there would have to be libations involved...:D

NDD:

Seems to me you are using the eight factors to your advantage. They are your foundation and you know when to use them. I don't think you can go wrong with them. I just caution fellows who are working with 'new shooters' to be careful with what you put into their heads. Kind of like when some moron introduces 'Spin Drift' into the heads of shooters whose performance doesn't match that of their rifle and ammo. Shooters who are having difficulty tend to use such things as an excuse for poor performance or focus themselves on things that have no meaning.

I really like your methods concerning body position. I believe the same way but just have different words for it. I view the barrel aligned via sights to the eye as an 'aligned system' of eyes and sights. This system one shifts around his lower body much like a tank turret and main gun. To a point of course and then you shift your whole body. I really stress eye sight alignment and developing this aligned system of eyes and sights as anything to allow one to see a sight picture more clearly and to pull the trigger more consistently are good things. As for trigger control, I could care less if the guy straightens out the trigger on an M-16, as long as the barrel remains pointed into the middle of the target when he does so. You have said the same thing -- just a different way of communicating it. To the Army, this is called position. I even call it position and it is a position. The issue seems to be what does a position do for the shooter? Well, to me a position points the aligned system of sights and eyes and lets the shooter move his trigger consistently and perfectly.

I view breath control as something done in order to see the sight picture better, and as a relaxation tool. Guys who are relaxed tend to have more consistent trigger control. Most leaders and even most Joes still view breathing as the ill for failing to have the barrel pointed into the target when the shot is fired. We both know what breathing through a string of rapid fire can do to shots. But only if the shots are fired higher or lower than center. No, I don't advise guys to breath as they fire the shot but nothing says one can't do this and still hold perfect shots. I prefer to do like you describe with short hard breaths and holds followed by deep breaths when possible. I also could care less if a guy takes multiple shots on one breath. Some guys are pretty fast, particularly with the M-68.

I like presenting guys with a few concepts concerning marksmanship and then coach them on using the concepts to achieve marksmanship goals on static and tactical ranges. Today's Four Marksmanship Fundamentals are concept oriented and are actually pretty good. Unfortunately, it takes guys who really know what they are doing in terms of all aspects of training and communication to transform these fundamentals into productive results with large groups of soldiers.

My big issue with the Army in terms of marksmanship training is that the Army focuses on short term solutions instead of long term progress. We try to give the soldier concepts to apply with an opportunity to apply them so he can learn how to train himself when he gets the opportunity to fire.

Your last comment on competence is right on the money. Takes a whole bunch of discipline and patience for a guy to develop into a top of the line shooter.

Now another 299 pages and I have my book!

He, he, he.

Gene

Yes, in the case of the "wheel" yes.

It's as outdated as the single action six shooter.

Outdated as the Weaver stance.

TS

First of all this thread is outstanding...

A few of my thoughts:

1. Start with a 4x4x4 inch wood block. Place said wood block on the dirt / sand mound etc that the bullets impact into once they pass through the paper target. Engage the wood block with a shot or two or three. Upon being shot the wood block will move to a different position. Engage the wood block again. The goal is to keep the wood block moving as much as possible. This is good for getting students used to having to shift their focus from the front sight, to down range to scan for threats / measure the effectiveness of their fire, then back to their front sight to re-engage the target.

2. Simunition kits and protective gear required for this one... Take two students and have them load their weapons with simunitions. Tell the student that on command they will engage each other and the first person who shoots the other wins. Prior to the students engaging each other have them close their eyes and hold their ears as the instructor takes their weapon from them, empties the chamber, presses the magazine release, then returns their weapon to them. When they attempt to engage each other the first student to realize their is a problem and properly executes tap-rack-bang will win.

A question about scanning for additional threats to the front...

I have been taught two ways of scanning for additional threats to the front following engaging the target.

Method 1 calls for me returning my pistol to my high center chest (what the USMC HRP program called position two) and scanning by moving my eyes / head only.

Method 2 calls for me to keep the pistol at full arm extension and move the pistol with my eyes as I scan my front.


Which method do you folks prefer and why?

might as well have the gun follow the line of sight...i was trained to keep the weapon trained on the line of sight...reduces reaction time...no sense in scanning, then aiming...anything you scan should be readily engaged...

Stan:
1. We used to do your woodblock drill with empty ammo boxes. You miss, you have to move back to the next line. Hit and you get to move up.

2. I have seen guys do your SIMS drill as well, with the loser having to take an additional round in the 4th POC.

Scan - I look at it as "My gun is now dirty, I might as well find somebody else to KIA." It is also a way to break out of stress symptoms, mostly tunnel vision. We teach drop the gun slightly (micro amount) to clear line of vision and do it with arms extended and finger on the trigger.

Gene,
Are these the four you use?

LINK

lk, Take TS up on that offer. You won't find a better one. ;) I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, except it was 30 or so years without practice. Some shooting here and there. Not much. Even though it is the end of July, could have gone out shooting the past few days. It was only in the upper 90's. But October and beyond, you should be pretty safe. :D Hell! I'll come along, so your misery will have company. No problem with the libations.

Doc:

Those are the four fundamentals but that is absolutely not how I use them. Once again the Army is trying to force a soldier to do more than two things at one time and that relates to my statements on why the Army can't progress.

Here is how I define them -- when I use them. Sometimes I substitute recoil control in place of breathing if I think recoil control needs to be openly stressed. I am not dogmatic about these things and will change what I use in an instant. They are just a pretty convenient way of describing the things someone needs to do for consistency.

One time I only stresed position and trigger pull. Worked just fine as those two things were what the guys needed. They understood that position was also sight picture as your position ensures good eye sight alignment and points the barrel at your target.

I don't care how a guy points the barrel or pulls the trigger. As long as he gives us the consistent performance we demand for the particular training we are doing.

Here is what I normally emphasize for each one of the four fundamentals. I ignore that the Army wrote about them.

Position: Brings the sights to your eyes and points the barel for you.

Aiming with Consistent Sight Picture: Train your eyes to see what a good sight picture is and ingrain that in your mind.

Trigger Control: When your eyes see a 'good enough' sight picture, move your finger without changing the sight picture.

Breathing: Deep and controlled breathing gives eyes oxygen so you can see your sight picture better. It also relaxes you so you can point the barrel and pull the trigger better. It is a requirement in order to continue to live.

Off to some practice at 300 and probably 500 today!

Gene

Scan
 

Like NDD said the scanning the threat area is to break your tunnel vision you acquire in a gunfight and to remove yourself from the threats tunnel vision. Teaching a controlled scan left then right is to install the muscle memory to new shooters to perform a solid follow thru. Like stance and scanning as Shooters become more proficient they will all perform this task a little different. The stance is a guideline for a secure and balanced shooting platform. It is a natural fighting stance. I have seen instructors still correcting and nitpicking shooters stance after two weeks of shooting even though the Students are consistantly hiting the kill zone. If they are shooting accurately and have a secure and balanced stance after the first week we leave their stance as it is. It is their natural stance. I always notice that instructors who can only correct stance with students after a week of Combat Marksmanship is a sign of a instructor who has little experience in teaching combat marksmanship.

It speaks! And well....

went to the range today...shot well, if the civvies are to be believed, but not at a level where i thought i used to be...probably not even at the level i actuallyused to be...:(
i guess i need to clear my sometime on my calendar...

sounds like a plan...

KG:

Absolutely correct in both statements. Thats why I use a concept of position -- just saying what a positon is and does for the shooter. They will find their own best position. The check is performance.

It is extremely difficult for me to break in a new cadre member coming from the line for the exact reason you stated. I have to train their eyes to see 'consistency' by a shooter. Very difficult to break them from focusing on form over performance. I have techniques that work pretty well in re-focusing cadre who would rather be dogmatic than practical.

Here is one for you that you probably don't run into too much. Very few cadre I get have any idea what 'good' is, or what to reasonably expect from shooters in various conditions and with various types of resource constraints. A few days on a KD range is a pretty big eye opener.

Gene

NDD,
The reload drill you mentioned at the beginning is a good one.;) I would like to add kit selection comes into play here. Whether you carry one spare mag or twenty you should have one “emergency reload" pouch. This will preferably be an open top or kydex pouch. This is my "oh shit” reload pouch. I like to piggy back pistol pouches on top of this one rifle pouch. This will allow you to ingrain that vital muscle memory of your “go to” reload regardless of the weapon system.

When practicing the drill NDD talks about the helper should place the new mag into the same pouch. The emergency reload pouch. Through out the range training day students should focus on doing emergency reloads from this pouch and when there is a lull in the fight top it off with fresh mags. This drill applies to both pistol and rifle. If you piggy back these pouches (pistol and rifle) you will maximize your speed and proficiency at the speed reload (combat reload). Regardless of the weapon system your hand goes to the same location

Last thing: This is one of the best posts I’ve read on the internet for a firearms instructor:


If you are a trainer, read this, read it again and know it. Understanding this, being able to recognize fatigue in students and setting up your training accordingly will maximize the productivity of your range time.

Thank you, TS.

I think that's the biggest post I've ever seen you make. LOL

I changed my set-up tonight. I put a MM-designed, Emdom-produced 6o4 on the weak side of my vest chest. It's right above the M4 pouches now. I have only dry fired it so far, but I think I'm going to like it. I'll shoot it some then let you guys know my thoughts later. I need kg to take the pics. I don't know about carrying 4 in it. What I'm thinking is I will load out of it and then have one on the near side by itself, then two in the other. Seems that the one will fit the bill as your emergency reload pouch. The top folds back and the retaining band seems to hold it in there without being too tight.

It's going to take me a while to get used to it, but I think will be eventually be just the ticket.

Great comments by all.

Home
 

It speaks! And well....

I and home spending time with the wife so I have plenty of time to post.........

This is an excellent thread, tons of great information, especially from the instructor point of view. Unfortunately, I wasnt lucky enough to attend any of the Army's/SF finer shooting schools, but have come around once I retired and actually have time to invest in the range.

One drill I particularily like, and credit where credit is due, I found on the internet one day, at:

personaldefensetraining.com/showpage.php?target=dottorture.php&PHPSESSID=7340b c370bf83de5c46f400b026d0659

and goes like...

This is a marksmanship drill, fired at 3 yards or further. Targets are ten 2" dots numbered. A total of 50 rounds is needed. You will perform: 22 draws and holster, depending on magazine capacity 5-10 administrative or speed reloads, obtain 83 sight pictures and press the trigger 50 times.

Dot #1- Draw and fire one string of 5 rounds for best group. One hole if possible, total 5 rounds.
Dot #2- Draw and fire 1 shot, holster and repeat X4, total 5 rounds.
Dot #3 and 4- Draw and fire 1 shot on #3, then 1 shot on 4, holster and repeat X4, total 8 rounds.
Dot #5- Draw and fire string of 5 rounds, strong hand only, total 5 rounds.
Dot #6 and 7- Draw and fire 2 shots on #6, then 2 on #7, holster, repeat X4, total 16 rounds.
Dot #8- From ready or retention, fire five shots, weak hand only, total 5 rounds.
Dot #9 and 10- Draw and fire 1 shots on #9, speed reload, fire 1 shots on #10, holster and repeat X3, total 6 rounds.
When you can do this clean on demand, extend the length or start timing and work on speed but maintaining accuracy. If a single shot is missed, you flunk. Only hits count and only perfect practice makes perfect.

The only modification I made was on Dot #5, I fire/recover x 5, versus a string of 5, and the same on Dot #8. The thing I like about it is it covers a lot of basic skills, front sight focus/trigger squeeze, reloads and most importantly strong hand only and weak hand only in a drill packaged to use the same number of rounds in a box of ammo.

I usually shoot this as "warm up" if you will then work on whatever I am focused on for the day. For the average/non-military shooter, I would say this is a HUGE shortcoming. How many times do you go to the range and see someone tack up a target, shoot it 10-15 times, take it down and tack up another and repeat til ammo is gone with no real focus in mind. I try to pick one thing each time I go to the range and work on it, versus just sending lead down-range.

And the target for the Dot Drill... thoughts anyone..?

CDRODA396, I've used the dot torture. Very humbling. Get it perfect at 3 yards then speed up and so on.

Another amusing one that I used at an LE rifle competition is 5 each 1" dots, horizontally spaced about 1 1/2" apart at 100 yards. You shoot prone with a bolt gun and you have 7 seconds. You have 11 seconds at 200 yards.

3 Yards?
 

Guys:

Three, five, and seven yards for the pistol? 100 and 200 yards for the rifle? Lord Have Mercy.

I kind of figure it like this. If I have to shoot someone at five yards with the pistol, I surely won't be trying to hold a one hole group. If I have to shoot someone at 100 or 200 yards with a rifle, a six MOA group will kill him as dead as a one MOA group, particularly if you shoot him with about fifty rounds of 5.56 or 7.62 from a machinegun.

If I have to go 'South Paw', it means my 'North Paw' is 'Deadlined for Parts' and that is a bad thing, most likely accompanied by severe pain, loss of blood and other things that interfere with the Four Marksmanship Fundamentals. Enough of things to render South Paw shooting little more than intimidating an enemy with noise and the potential for a hit.

As I don't claim to be anything more than a soldier, I won't get involved in LEA types of scenarios as the LEA has their rules and soldiers have their rules -- and the two don't meet -- ever -- and not even in the most extreme of LEA situations. You guys withdraw if shot at. We attack. You guys have to be ensured of a one minute hold or you are wise not to shoot. We shoot with anything and everything from the rifle to the 155. You care about law suits and we don't.

The only thing in common is that both the LEA and Joe loses in the media, no matter how just their cause.

Gene

I could not agree more.

A statistic I have heard is that over 90% of police longrifle shots are under 100m and we all know that 99% of handgun fights are 21 feet or less.

Police are not trained to be offensive, just "tactical":rolleyes:

Now that does not mean we cannot teach them to be as accurate as possible to do their jobs.;) I'd actually do not want them "spraying and praying" while attempting to take down "one" badguy......

(We just had a cop accidentally kill a 5 year old in a gun battle here in the Phoenix area just a month or two ago. Better training could have prevented the accident......)

We shot the dot torture (modified) a few weeks ago. The Instructors really liked it, so we will be doing it again.

I agree Gene, but I look at it this way" One hole (or really good groups) at 3, 5, 7 10 will probably spread to 6" (or better) under two-way range duress. And we have to have a goal to shoot for in training, so it might as well be a good one.

I'm going to try out the dot torture next time I'm out shooting. Targets I can just print out and have a stack of are nice...

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

New gun?

What model?

Where are the pics?

You can knock together a decent target stand out of 2x4s and a couple of pieces of PVC pipe.

TR

Puma 92 lever action .454 Casull.

The wife had been drooling over it in the past, I saved my hide when I showed up with the new carbine by turning her frown upside down by tossing her the box and saying "STFU I didn't leave you out"

Nice shootin' iron.

I just picked up a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. Got some 525 grain hard cast bullets to load up for it when I get the chance.

As far as shooting drills go, I would venture that the drills for a bullseye shooter are not the same as those for an IPSC shooter which are not the same as for a LEO, which are not the same as for an SF soldier.

Training starts with an analysis of the skills required for the intended purpose, and then maps a route to acquire and ingrain the specific skills needed. Olympic class sprinters do not use the same routine as marathon runners. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice does. And as I was recently told, look for TTPs that work 100% of the time, in 100% of the conditions. Dark, light, hot, cold, amped up, tired, kitted up, naked, it has to work all of the time. I am trying to get rid of some old habits, and it is not easy.

HTH.

TR

The thought just occurred to me that this might need to be its own thread and not a hi-jack of a shooting drills thread...if so deemed, Admins please move as appropriate...THX.

I built a couple target stands out of PVC plumbing tubing from a design I saw at the local "Fun Shoots" down in Tampa. You can get the tubing at any Home Depot, Lowe's (no sponsorship or plug intended :D ) You need one or two 10" lengths, I think 2" diameter (the size a 1x4 will slide snuggly down into), then two "four-way" connectors (the ones that have two connections flowing straight through, then two connections perpendicular to the straight through ones, at a 90 degree angle to each other...if that makes sense?).

The four-way connectors are placed on the ground, oriented so the "straight-through" portion runs front to back (up and down range), one of the remaining two openings is oriented up, and the remaining opening is oriented to the inside (or towards the other four way connector if you will). Cut a cross piece of the tubing the same width as an IPSC standard target (plus an inch or so on either side to go into the connector) and connect the two pieces. Then cut four 18"+/- pieces and insert them into the two front to back connections on each side. You know have an "H" with the horizontal bar of the "H" the width of an IPSC target, and the two parralell legs approx a yard long. Then take two 12" pieces and place them in the connection oriented skyward on each side.

Now a 1x4 can be placed in each side, in the connector pointed skyward, they will be separated by the width of an IPSC target so you can staple the target to the uprights with a staple gun. Or you can use any cardboard cut to size.

You can also pick up end PVC caps, and if its windy out or you are shooting the .454, fill the legs along the ground with sand, cap them and you have a weighted stand.

The whole thing will dissassemble and go in the trunk of your car in minutes. If you hit one of the 1x4's or piece of PVC, just run down to the local hardware store and pick up a replacement. I believe 10' of the correct diameter tubing is about $3, and the two four-way connectors are about $4 each.

This is of course for the budget minded, I would much rather have a plate rack, a couple of rotating, metal target holders, some swingers, movers, etc. Unfortunately, my "fixed income," and small, inside the city limits backyard wont allow it.

I would take some digital pics and post them, but I just moved and am sitting on the one folding chair I brought with me, typing on the computer sitting on the cooler I brought and waiting on my HHG's, so no digital camera or targets are currently available!