OcdtADF, I won't speak for TR, but I believe his request for sources was in reference to your statement above. The Natick document you later linked makes no mention of the Universal Camouflage Pattern (UCP), let alone the fact it was chosen for the reason you cite. Please either put up a reputable, perferably official, reference that proves that UCP was chosen for its superiority in desert-specific environments, or stop stating "facts" about how things are decided in the US Army.

KG:

Night Desert pattern.

Gene

Razor

If you like I can provide further clarification on the subject.

The patterns tested in the report I linked to are the basis of the currant ACU.

The Urban Track Pattern listed in the report is the Universal Camouflage Pattern. It was digitised after the trial and the colour black was removed. This gave it the capability of the All Over Brush Pattern. Thus the UCP was born.

I’m sorry; I assumed that most people would have known this.
Here is another source that confirms my statement.

http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/...ER-2997500.php

Cadet,

Again, the statement that UCP was chosen because it performed better in a desert environment is misleading at best, and outright wrong at worst. Read the sources you've listed a bit more carefully, and you'll find that Urban Track (and yes, I had heard that UCP is a modified version of Urban Track, but kudos for the catty passive-aggressive swipe, regardless) finished dead last among the Phase IV finalists, bested by Desert All Over Brush, Woodland Track and Scorpion (aka Multicam). Further, the overall "winner", Desert All Over Brush, was chosen for its performance across the spectrum of the three tested environments (desert, woodland and urban), not for outstanding performance in a single environment, although unsurprisingly it peformed better in desert and urban terrains. In others words, it was a better "jack of all trades; master of none" than the other patterns, in the opinion of the selection panel. Interestingly enough, however, Desert All Over Brush was not one of the two finalist patterns, which were the two bottom performers--Multicam and Urban Track.

Razor

Your right about everything you say in your post. Though I’m not sure what you’re arguing. Yes urban track did not finish first in any area of the testing. Except one of the urban tests. The weaknesses associated with it during the trials were put down to the use of black on the uniform. Criticising the prototype before adjusting is a bit premature. Though the use of black remains a contentious issue amount camouflage developers and testers its removal from the urban track pattern was judged to have fixed the flaws associated with it.

PEO Response to criticism of the UCP
‘There has been much discussion about the Universal Camouflage Pattern used on the ACU. Extensive laboratory and field tests were conducted on 11 candidate patterns and colors during development. MultiCam, then called Scorpion, was one of the patterns subjected to a series of laboratory and field evaluations, in multiple, realistic, operational environments under varied terrain and lighting conditions in 2003-04. The camouflage pattern selected was determined to provide the best overall effective concealment in multiple, operational environments, including urban, woodland, and desert scenarios.’
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003418.html


While I will accept criticism of the assumption the testers made in relation to black; namely that its removal would remove urban track’s flaws. I’m not sure I can be so accommodating in relation to your assumptions about my argument.

For an interesting article by hyperstealth biotech on the use of black in uniforms
http://www.hyperstealth.com/acupat/

Note there is an opposition argument about black arguably more detectable when moving. I’m not sure what side of the black in uniform debate I’m on.

My assertion, one that I’m not sure you’ve spoken to is that testing in desert, woodland, urban and desert urban was not sufficient to provide a decent camouflage outcome for the future force warrior program. Within the parameters set, the UCP was the best pattern they could get. I’m sure if they tested it again with a more diverse set of terrains they would have discovered that the patterns flaws were probably broader than the use of black in its texturing. Almost all PEO responses to the discussion of the camouflage choice sight its ‘tested’ superiority in the mentioned areas. My statement about the Camo being the best for the desert should be taken in that context. What the PRO responses don’t do is discuss whether those areas are the ones being encountered by soldiers under fire.

There has been a lot of conspiracy debate over the decision to use the Urban Track pattern. It seems to me that the discussion for the most part needs to be about the testing procedure itself. Considering the amount of money involved the United States Military probably should have seen this coming. Most of my familiarity with this issue is from the position of an outsider. My knowledge about testing procedure comes from my own country and may not be totally applicable. Also our Aussie desert camouflage (DPDU) looks like a packet of brown jelly beans. Probably why were using Auscam in parts of Afghanistan. My country needs a discussion like this, because Auscam, though surprisingly effective (this is luck, because we have a similar coloured environment, the Brits would be screwed if they tried to use DPM) was not designed for Afghanistan nor does it take advantage of a digitised pattern. I wish the discussion about camouflage was like this in our country.


As previosly stated it also seems that the argument has already been made about the ACU in Afghanistan

Recently the army has decided to order a new combat uniform for Afghanistan. An article in the army times, quoting HR2346 pointed out that while functional in Iraq it was not suited for Afghanistan. The House Resolution Ordered The DOD to:

There is also a report on the matter floating around. It was attached to HR 2346. Have not been able to find it.

‘Take immediate action to provide combat uniforms to personnel deployed to Afghanistan with a camouflage pattern that is suited to the environment of Afghanistan’
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/0...forms_061509w/



Here is an interesting little piece on the UCP, it gives some discussion (unofficial) of the bias towards what the trails saw as ‘currant and future operating environments’
http://www.slate.com/id/2106359/

Deciding that black swatches contributed to Urban Track's failure is perfectly fair. Deciding that removing black from the pattern would improve it, is a logical next step. The decision to adjust one pattern without considering adjustments to the other patterns, strikes me as odd.

Declaring the adjusted Urban Track prototype to be the winner without testing the adjusted pattern would be more premature than criticizing the original Urban Track.

This is based on 30 years of military experience, not on any Natick study.

Black, in a uniform intended to be laundered, will never stay black, it quickly fades to shades of charcoal and gray, which frequently occur in nature.

Beyond very close ranges, the colors of camo lose their individual identity and become a conglomeration recognized only as the overall shade of the individual colors. BDUs become a brownish green. DCUs appear tan, ACUs appear a greenish tan, which I have not often seen in the areas I have operated, with the possible exception of a savannah or chaparral, in certain seasons.

The overall color of the ACUs made it a liability in a forest or jungle environment. It was also not particularly effective at night, due to its light colors, which means that it stood out about half of the time, in any environment.

I did not see the problem with having different uniforms for different theaters. We isssued overwhites for snowy areas, didn't we? We have cold weather gear for cold climates, and hot weather gear for hot environments. The overall cost to DA to maintain extra uniforms, plate carriers, rucks, etc. would likely be a drop in the bucket, in the big picture.

The Crye MC looks good and seems to perform well in almost all environments. I do not think that there is a better pattern if we are limited to a single uniform. On the other hand, the costs are very high, and Crye may have some issues making enough for a refit of half a million troops.

Time will tell, but IMHO, the ACU is flawed in camo and in design, and was a mistake.

TR

This is based on 30 years of military experience, not on any Natick study.

Black, in a uniform intended to be laundered, will never stay black, it quickly fades to shades of charcoal and gray, which frequently occur in nature.

Beyond very close ranges, the colors of camo lose their individual identity and become a conglomeration recognized only as the overall blended shade of the individual colors. BDUs become a brownish green. DCUs appear tan, ACUs appear a greenish tan, which I have not often seen in the areas I have operated, with the possible exception of a savannah or chaparral, in certain seasons.

The overall color of the ACUs made it a liability in a forest or jungle environment. It was also not particularly effective at night, due to its light colors, which means that it stood out about half of the time, in any environment.

I did not see the problem with having different uniforms for different theaters. We isssued overwhites for snowy areas, didn't we? We have cold weather gear for cold climates, and hot weather gear for hot environments. The overall cost to DA to maintain extra uniforms, plate carriers, rucks, etc. would likely be a drop in the bucket, in the big picture.

The Crye MC looks good and seems to perform well in almost all environments. I do not think that there is a better pattern if we are limited to a single uniform. On the other hand, the costs are very high, and Crye may have some issues making enough for a refit of half a million troops.

Time will tell, but IMHO, the ACU is flawed in camo and in design, and was a mistake.

TR

Well, I am getting RFI in about 3 weeks en-route to Afghanistan with the 82nd ABN...dime to doughnuts I get more ACU:rolleyes:
I'll post up after issue...

Eagle

Let me clarify it for you:

Note your bolded words. From the Natick sources listed in this thread, UCP/Urban Track was not the best pattern for use in the desert, as you asserted in the quote above; rather, Desert All Over Brush (DAOB) outperformed Urban Track in both desert and urban environments, during the day and at night, according to Natick's testing. According to test results, Urban Track only beat DAOB in the daytime woodland environment test at Ft. Benning, and the night IR woodland environment tests at Ft. Benning and Ft. Polk. I've spent quality time in the woods at Ft. Benning, and I have a hard time accepting that UCP adequately concealed its wearer against the daytime colors that predominate there, but that's neither here nor there.

My argument is that your statement that UCP was chosen for its superior performance in desert environments is both unsupported and incorrect.

Further, using a Slate article written by an art, design and automotive author gives the appearance of grasping at straws, rather than strengthening your position.

As a self-admitted outsider to the R&D and selection processes of the US Army, it may be a better choice to simply remain silent regarding them, than make definitive statements based on conjecture.

Richard,
Do you think a LOM will be enough?;)

There is a really good peice in the latest army times that really rips into the ACU for the reasons people have been mentioning. I can't link to it because of subscription issues. If you have one give it a read.

TR

I totally agree with you,

Its also good to see some discussion about the use of black. I would like to get more opinions on whether its use/disuse is a good idea. I really have not been able to make my mind up about it.

Razor

Please just let it go mate, your ignoring the testing the UCP was put through after the initial trial. Your also not talking about the category limitations.

As far as the Black go's. Twice now, one time very recently. We tried a Black Uniform. Like stated above. Black uniforms fade to Grey. We just field tested a Black Uniform. After one week on the Range, only washed once. It faded considerably.

Cadet:

I think you should consider your status here when interacting with QPs and the staff, mate.

Have a very SF day.

TR

Black Uniform
 

Black Uniforms look really cool....

But in a prone position in an exposed position on a hot sunny they suck.

Well, we used to wear a uniform for about 20 years. Green Utilities in the 50s to 70s, jungles mid-60s to mid 80s, BDUs early 80s into the 00s.

Now we've got it down to 20/30 months or so. Dang, just when all the extras come on line it's time to change out for a new one.