Forgive me, but I thought their general point has been that the distinction does not matter so long as the Islamic world is divided primarily between a relatively small number of violent Islamofascists and a larger majority of passive observers who will not organize against them.

I do not like the statement that we, "are at war with Islam." However, I understand that, until such time as a vocal opposition to the Islamofascists emerges from within the Islamic community, the distinction is of little utility to those who are taking the fight to our enemies. Until then, they will continue to focus on targeting our most dangerous adversaries and those who provide them comfort and aid. When or if a vocal opposition appears, supporting those individuals will become more of a concern for SF. Until then, they are focused on the 25m target and, in any case, no one is suggesting that we take the war to Islam's passive majority. They are properly the focus of public diplomacy.

Have I got this right?

To continue on the line of TR's post - It doesn't matter if we think we're in a war with Islam. Muslims think they're in a perpetual state of war with al'Islam (in case anybody missed it - that's us - everybody who has not accepted Mohammed as the one true prophet of Allah, blessed be His name!). Wars only require one aggressor. Unless the entire western world wakes up to the fact that a state of WAR (not just an intelectual conflict of opposing ideologies) exists, we will lose. Losing means life does not continue as we know it. It gets very ugly. And they fight the long fight. France is about to get it's justice, current population trends project they will be a Muslim nation w/i 50 years as will most of Southern Europe. Put your head in the sand and be an easy target or work to redirect their culture and eliminate the militancy that IS the ROOT of the Muslim religion. Like most good SF Soldiers, I have done the cultural studies, objectively believe it or not, and our only chance to win is to succeed in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lebanon. Those three countries/situations, represent our best chance to present an alternative to Wahabiism (and other fundamentalists) and suborn the people into wanting more than another theocracy based on the ravings of a 7th century megalomaniac and delusions that the 14th century was a "Golden Age". As Sun Tsu said - Know your enemy -------- . FWIW - Peregrino

The Jihadists? The madrassas? Few Imams. Some OBL t-shirts.

What percentage of Muslims are jihadists (and assuming you mean only those for whom jihad means a duty to propagate the faith by war, and not just a duty to propagate the faith - as the son of a Baptist missionary I know a little about the latter not just for Muslims)? What percentage of madrasas "teach the same line"? As I noted in another thread, madrasas in Bangladesh for example are state-supervised and essentially little different from regular schools than parochial schools in the US are from private schools. What percentage of imams are "jihadists"? How many kids were wearing OBL t-shirts (or Che t-shirts)? Sometimes it seems like some here think the answer to each is 100%, or at least close enough as not to matter, and seem utterly uninterested in actually testing that hypothesis, instead only seeking sources that confirm the preconception.

Actually, we seem to be faced with a situation where someone in the neighbor's house is a murderer, and some in the family fear speaking out while others seek to put family first (and any cop who has answered a domestic disturbance call can tell you how strong that bond can be) and a few have the courage to speak out. The neighbors are the Jones. Some would like to go after the murderer, while others seem content to treat all Jones as murderers.

What have France and Germany and Belgium and Mexico and Argentina and Brazil and Chile and Greece and myriad other predominantly Christian countries done? What has Russia done, besides try to thwart us on confronting Iraq and Iran and use the GWOT as an excuse to brand all Chechens as jihadists ripe for killing?

What percentage of Germans in 1941 were actually Nazis?

Should we not have gone to war with them because the majority were not party members or claimed not to know what was going on in the camps?

Was bombing civilian targets in Germany wrong because they were not actually Nazis?

Should the Nuremberg trials have accepted the "I was only following orders" excuse?

How about the Japanese? There were only a few thousand directly responsible for the Pearl Harbor attack, Hell, we burned 50 times that number in incendiary raids on Tokyo, almost all of whom had nothing to do with the attack. Was that wrong?

What proof should we have of hostile intent (or collaborative support) by separate individuals before we are permitted to engage them? How about their hosts?

Just a few random thoughts, I maintain that we are at war with every Moslem who wants to be at war with us, and can extend that to supporting members as we see fit.

TR

Ask them what?

Kurds are Muslims. Turkish repression of Kurdish national identity is a nationalist idea, not sectarian. It is in fact a Western concept, a product of the Enlightenment. Turkey was following the French example, among others.

At the time of the Revolution, only about 25% of people in France spoke French (the rest spoke Breton, Provencal, German, Flemish and various other languages and dialects) and there was no concept of citizenship. After Napoleon, there was a French nation (for better or worse) made up of French citizens. That is what Atatürk was trying to create in Turkey out of the ashes of the Ottoman Empire. You are welcome to criticize that policy, but it has nothing to do with Islam.

As for the Armenians, that was perpetrated under the Ottoman Empire. In 1915. It also had ethnic and military components, as well as religious. The Ottomans long feared that Armenians would help the Russians, and their (Christian) German allies agreed.

1915 was 25-30 years before people in a predominantly Christian part of the world killed 6 million people for their religion. If you are going to cite the Armenian genocide as evidence that modern Turkey is a repressive Muslim state, then the Holocaust seems like even better evidence that the West is full of genocidal Christians.

A progressive state doesn't murder its citizens by the millions no matter their religion or cause.

Turks are still killing Armenians, just not in large groups.

The conversation was Turkey: Progressive or not? Not did Hitler kill Jews. Do you consider Nazi Germany representative of a progressive state?

Islam/Muslim Home Grown Sleeper-Cells
 

American Saudi Schools: Home Grown Sleeper-Cells
By Barbara J. Stock
March 3, 2005

There are thousands of Saudi-funded Islamic schools in America. While we have been aware of this for years, Americans were ignorant about what was being taught in those schools to American children who just happen to be Muslim. The Saudi Ministry of Education has been creating a network of sleeper-cells right in the heart of America.

For a modest investment, the Saudi government has had total access to thousands of young American minds and has used that opportunity to corrupt and mold those young minds into its view of the perfect Muslim. The perfect Muslim is full of hate for all non-Muslims, has no loyalty to the United States, and is convinced that only radical Islam--Wahhabism--is the correct interpretation of Islam. There are now thousands of pre-programmed terrorists in America, waiting for the war against the American infidel to begin in earnest. These soldiers do not consider themselves: they know they are loyal Muslims in the army of Islam.

The American flag waves in front of each Saudi-supported American school, but the students continue to be taught that someday it will be replaced with the flag of Islam. They believe it is just a matter of time. These young people have been totally indoctrinated in the Wahhabism belief that has been taught in Saudi Arabia for two centuries. Children are not born terrorists. Terrorists are created. The Saudis have been very busy doing just that--right here in America.

There are two major questions that remain: How much longer will Americans tolerate this Saudi hate-filled school system in our midst and how much damage has been done? One has to assume that the hate-everyone-not-Muslim curriculum is standard in all of them.

After other embarrassing moments for the Saudis, the airwaves have been saturated with denials and righteous indignation from the Saudi government. The Royal House of Saud has been noticeably silent this time. Perhaps there is nothing for them to say. Nothing has changed in Saudi Arabia. The radical Wahhabi interpretation of the Quran is still being taught to Saudi children. Where do you think Bin Laden learned it? What angered Bin Laden was the fact that he felt that the Royal Family had strayed from the strict path of Islam because of Western influence.

Long ago, the House of Saud turned over the Education Ministry to the Wahhabi clerics with the understanding that the Royal Family would not be bothered. The Saudi leaders have allowed this hatred to be spread all over the world in the hopes of securing their own safety.

Wahhabism has given birth to the likes of Bin Laden and the Taliban. These Islamic terrorists are the strictest of the strict. Wahhabies are the most violent and think nothing of slitting the throat of a fellow Muslim that does not practice Wahhabism. This is the religion of our "good friends," the Saudis.

What the Saudis have done is create perhaps the largest Fifth Column in history. There is no way of knowing how many of those American Muslim children, now adults, will follow the clarion call when it is given. That call will be given. Arabs do nothing on impulse. The attack on 9/11 was more than six years in the making. It is unlikely that the call will come from the Saudi Arabian government. The Saudis lost control of the situation years ago. The self-appointed-by-Allah rulers of Saudi Arabia are in the cross-hairs themselves. Frankenstein's monster has come home seeking its creator.

In July, 2004, the Saudis proudly posted on Saudi Institutes webpage: "We need your Support! Join the Saudi Institute in fighting terrorism and promoting democracy in Saudi Arabia." While the Saudis were saying these lovely and reassuring words publicly, Erik Ruselowski published an opinion editorial in the Virginia Pilot that gave the first line of the teachers manual used for teaching first graders: "For the teacher: Explain that all religions, other than Islam, are false, including that of the Jews, Christians, and all others." There seems to be a conflict between what the Saudis say and what they do. The Islamic Academy in Alexandria, Virginia, is completely funded by the Saudi government and some of its more illustrious graduates are now making a name for themselves.

Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, an American, graduated from that academy six years ago at the top of his class. He now faces 80 years in prison for being a traitor to his country. This must baffle most Muslims, who have no allegiance to any country. Their only allegiance is to Islam. This is what they have been taught since birth. It is all they know. Muslims have no borders.

Saudi children are taught to hate the Jews. They believe that Jews are the root of all things evil. A high school text book has lines such as this that must be memorized by all students: "The Hour will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews, and Muslims will kill all the Jews." Saudi children are taught that it is not a crime to kill a Jew. In fact, the extermination of the Jews is encouraged and these children are taught that this pleases Allah. The "end-time" cannot come if Muslims have not destroyed the Jew. This mindset has now been expanded to include Christians, Hindus, and even Muslims who do not follow Wahhabism. It is not an accident that 15 of the 19 highjackers on 9/11were Saudi. The hatred taught to them in Saudi schools gave birth to their 9/11 mission.

Many Muslims brag that Islam is the "fastest growing religion in the world." These new converts have not been brainwashed since infancy, so the indoctrination needs to be swift and harsh. In 1993, the Islamic Assembly of North America published the "Answers to Common Questions to New Muslims." The question put to these Islamic leaders was: "Now that I am Muslim, can I keep my non-Muslim friends that I have known all my life?" Their answer should anger every American. These new Muslims were told to break all ties with non-Muslim friends and family. "You should try to remain away from mixing with non-Muslims because mixing with them removes your religious zealousness and pride from your heart and may lead you to having love and compassion in your heart for them. ...it is obligatory upon a Muslim to be free of the people of infidelity and to hate them for the sake of Allah." Hatred is quickly inserted to new converts mind-set. They isolate and indoctrinate. Americans call it brainwashing.

Islam doesn't allow love and compassion for un-believers. It would be difficult for new converts to kill those that they consider friends. While this teaching session goes on to say that infidels should not be harmed, there is the obligatory exception: "One must not harm them, hurt them or oppose them without justice and rights to do so, as long as they are not fighting us." But we are fighting them because the vast majority of Americans do not wish to be Muslim. This one line justifies killing their neighbor or even their brother if he is not Muslim.

Hatred for infidels is preached from American mosques. The absolute belief that Islam will rule the world is taught in Islamic schools in America and all over the world. New converts to Islam are isolated and indoctrinated to hate their country and their people. The war is here. It's just that the shooting hasn't started yet.

Barbara Stock is a working registered nurse with 24 years of experience.

She is the mother of two grown sons and two grandchildren.

Barbara is a regular contributor to AmericanDaily, ReNewAmerica, Bushcountry, RepublicanDailyNews, The Judson Cox Newsletter, and Prudent Politics. She has also been published on Intellectual Conservative, TownHall, New Republic, Israeli News, and even the Retired NYCFD website.

Barbara has her own webpage at Republican and Proud.

The Jihadists are not Islam.

Agree entirely. Let's not toss the innocent neighbors who happen to share a single characteristic with that murderer into the same group with him.

Yes.

Yes.

No, I have a problem with misidentifying the threat and thereby developing a strategy that is inappropriate and excessive. The threat is a relatively small portion of a particular segment of Islam. It is not Islam, and it can be demonstrated that portions of Islam are our allies.

As a whole, no. Do Catholics pose a threat to Protestants? Or is that only a problem in Northern Ireland?

Again, as a whole, no. Do Catholics view England as a target? Or is it a particular group of Irish Catholic terrorists?

Yes.

Considering one was recently elected on an anti-Islamic terrorism platform, the answer is obviously yes.

Yes.

Taken into custody, prosecuted, jailed and killed more Al Queda, JI, etc. than have most of the other nations in the world. Provided intelligence allowing us and Thailand to find and arrest more.

Compared to Iran? Iraq until two years ago?

It is a democracy, even if not in the form that the US is used to.

AL, you have made TR's point with your excellent anology . During every LEO operation to arrest any murderer or violent felon, you go in understanding that the friend (neighbor) and or family bond (religion) can be very volatile. Hell, even the thug (muj) know this - thats why he hides there. But, it is the neighbors or family who make the decision that they are either with Mr. Thug, or not.

To bring said Thug to justice, my team will come thru the door with as much speed, violence of action and overwhelming force as I deem necessary until everyone's dick is in the dirt and secured. I have dusted off many a parent, cousin, friend and yes even clergy AFTER the mission was completed and the murderer/felon was in custody. Not to apologize to them, but to explain what they already know - him bad - us good, better get that door fixed.

Hearts and minds during the hit is not an option. You go after the murderer but do you ignore the family / neighbors in the room while doing so? Of course not -they, sometimes are a bigger unknown entity as the thug himself. Indifferent, fearful, or tacit compliance because of a religious bond is a weak excuse.

And no, I don't feel that we should treat everyone in the house as "murderers", just those who allow the murderer into their house, shelter him, and jump up and get between me and the murderer.

Casey,

Do you include the neighbors across the street? How about the ones on the next block?

Good question - and my response can be kept within this anology, or used within the GWOT framework. All the neighbors are part of the same community (umma) that is affected by this thugs (muj) actions are they not? Everyone in that community knows that it is wrong for Mr. Thug to perpetrate hostile actions such as a holdup/robbery against the community, or even to bust caps at the police, whom they may even feel act overzealous within their own community.

It is however, the neighbors reactions during the search for Mr Thug and his subsequent arrest (or other) wherein the neighbors identify their true beliefs. Some may come out of their houses just because of actions taking place on their block, others may want to intervene because they knew the yuf, or perceive this arrest as a race issue. I have yet to see a crowd gather and attempt to plot or do harm to any LEO's (kafir) because " their taking that Greek Othodox / Buddahist / Christian guy - let's gettem'", I believe only this "great neighborhood of peace" (islam) instructs same.

More to the point, all the neighbors are treated with a wary respect and dignity until they prove otherwise, or info is developed that it is unwarranted (situation and terrain). This is especially true if that neighborhood (religion) has proclaimned to hate LEO's and all who do not live within their specific community, time and time again (fatwas). Add to that fact that this specific neighborhood has acted on such hate claims (fatwas) with beheadings, homicide bombing, assassinations, not just in their own neighborhood, but worldwide against non-neighbors (kuffar), all because of their specific neighborhood beliefs (religion).

All I'm saying here my friend is that after meeting some of the neighbors, and reading their "neighborhood edicts" I choose to believe them. And as such, when said neighborhood individuals attempt to stop me from culling Mr Thug from the herd so as to protect my family or others, then yes, I readily admit those neighbors will be beaten like a greasy haired, buck toothed, cross eyed, chest puffin' crack head on the corner, or if force continuum allows, they will have the honor of dying (shaheed) for their neighborhood beliefs as my human bullet trap.

Seems to me that a whole lot of people are willing to treat not just one neighborhood with suspicion, but a whole lot of other neighborhoods who share a single common trait (religion) the same way, despite the efforts of some of those other neighborhoods to help us deal with the problem neighbors.

I think they share more than one common trait. Or maybe because of religion, they share many sub-traits.

What if the common trait among many is the desire to see all infidels wiped from the face of the Earth?

TR