NYC is a good place to be on this day.


Those who dispute that we are at war with "Islam" appear to believe that some Muslims accept those with other beliefs. This really is the ultimate question, isn't it? I'm still waiting for a cogent explanation of which Muslim sects, if any, preach meaningful tolerance.

I hold out hope for the latter Sir. And a fine St. Patty's Day to all, insha'allah.

Now that's worthy sarcasm! FWIW I too favor sending them to their martyr's reward. Having read some of the choicer passages in the Qur'an I'm afraid it's the only peace we're destined to have. Peregrino

This is just toooooooooo good, however it's closing in on 0300 here and my thoughts are light years away from my typing abilities. Later ...

Indonesia and Malaysia are at least as progressive as many of the countries in the world, including a large number of the nations found south of the United States.

And Casey stating that he believed we were at war with Islam is the point of how poorly aimed his sarcasm was.

Sounds like the reformation, doesn't it?

Would all of you fine "liberators of the oppressed" have been as quick to condemn all of Christianity?

Just curious, you understand. Because for a group of people who are supposed to have an understanding of cultural differences, I see an awful lot of inability to do so when it comes to a particular religion.

Oh, and Team Sergeant? Indonesia, the most populated Islamic nation in the world, and Malaysia, another heavily populated Islamic nation. Both are very progressive, even to the point of allowing someone to tip a Guinness on St. Patty's day... and both are democracies.

And let's not forget Turkey, which may not meet US standards, but is a whole lot better than Iran.

I've been to Turkey GH, albeit a long, long time ago. I would hardly use the term "progressive" to describe it. Repressive would be much more accurate in my opinion.

GH, you seem to do a lot of selective reading of these posts.

Did you miss the first part, where I stated that "they will either reform their religion to accept those with other beliefs"? That is the "win-win" strategy.

The Jihadists have repeatedly stated that their goal is to kill or convert the infidels. The madrassas teach the same line, and add that it is no crime to kill a non-believer. Few Imams or other senior Islamic clerics have publicly denounced that. If the Indonesians and Malays want to be of a different opinion, they sure haven't spoken up about it. I do recall seeing some OBL t-shirts in the tsunami refugees, do you think we handed those out?

Essentially, we are faced with a situation akin to having a homicidal murderer for a neighbor. He will be treated and healed (have an epiphany, be arrested or whatever), he will kill us, or we will have to kill him to protect ourselves.

Can you speak out on the streets of Jakarta against the government or have an Easter parade? Are women in Malasia accorded all of the same rights as men?

For a person who went through training, you seem to be having trouble identifying a threat and developing a strategy to eliminate it. What do you propose? Turning the other cheek a 40th or 50th time? Containment? Appeasement?

Do Moslems pose a threat to Americans/non-Moslems? Do Moslems view the US/non-Moslem countries as targets? Do a significant number of Moslems oppose the targeting of Americans/non-Moslems? Do the leaders of Islam oppose the attacks on Americans/non-Moslems? Have they spoken out against terrorism and crimes committed against Americans/non-Moslems? What have Indonesia and Malaysia done to help us in the GWOT?

TR

What dumbass started this thread anyway?

I lived in rural Turkey in 2000. I also spent some time in the cities. I didn't see anything that would be considered repressive. The press is fairly open and free.

The nearest grocery store was about a 40 min drive away. It had beer on the shelves and a pork section in the deli.

I have been to Turkey too. I lived there. I speak the language. I have also lived and loved among Turkish Germans.

"Repressive" is not the opposite of "progressive." Are you claiming that all that is progressive in Turkey is solely the result of state and militarily-enforced secular Atatürkism? That the people are all secretly chomping at the bit to kill infidels, and only the army (you know, the ones who actually have the means to kill infidels) is stopping them?

At its December 2004 Analysts' Meeting, Efes Beverage Group (which controls 77% of the Turkish beer market and is a market leader in six other markets, including Russia), reported that its beer business has had a compounded annual growth rate between 1996 and 2003 of 15%. It grew from the 10th largest brewer in Europe in 2002 to 6th in 2003. In 2003, its Turkish production was 780 million liters. In the past three years, its Turkish sales grew by a 3% compounded annual growth rate. From 2002 to 2003, its Turkish beer sales grew by 41% and gross profits by 50%. Turkey beer operations recorded a 2002 to 2003 increase in EBITDA of 70% and in net profits of 213%.

Efes sold 640 million liters of beer in Turkey in 2003, up from 600 million in 2002. Turkey beer sales were up 10% in the first quarter of 2004.

According to a 2004 report by market researcher Euromonitor International, the total alcoholic drinks market in Turkey was expected to reach nearly 928 million liters in 2003, up by 9% on the previous year in volume terms (based on Efes' market share and sales, the total actually exceeded Euromonitor's predictions).

Over the past decade, beer has displaced raki, the Turkish liquor similar to ouzo, as the drink of choice among young Turks. Wine sales are also growing.

I suppose the Army is holding up pictures of Atatürk and force-drinking all those otherwise jihadist Turks to drink.

Or maybe it is the repressive advertising featuring un-progressive Muslims like model Selin Toktay.

Jimbo's point seems to confirm that we are not at war with every Muslim, just certain groups of them. Or do you disagree with that, TR, casey and others taking the affirmative position?

SPAM and beer as a sign of progress? OK


AL - ask the Armenians and the Kurds.

Like I said, it was a long time ago.

I see American, British, Canadian, Australian, and NZ muslims condemning the 9/11 attacks, and a few selected others.

Was that the last time they spoke up against terrorism?

Where are the statements speaking out against ongoing terrorism by major players in predominantly Moslem countries?

You are either with us, or you are against us in this struggle.

TR