I would let them in on some of this stuff. They will be in serious trouble is they attempt to shoot those weapons near non hostiles and hit an innocent.

As far as the ARMs mounts, they have bought a mount with a history of not holding a zero. I would would look to other mounts such as the Smith Enterprise mount for the M14.

For a scope I would recommend a Leupold as a minimum, M3LR or if they insist on stupid, the M1. There are better scopes out there but they can get very expensive.

Have fun with the folk and check the receiver. If it is a TRW reciever then the receiver is probably milled bad for a barrel to reciever fit.

If they want to know why I know so much about that weapon, tell them that I used that weapon as a sniper for a "couple of years". :D

LR, excellent statement. I think that says more about the quality of person than any other words. (obviously there are exceptions). I am too very fortuante, 27 Years.

BTW, I would also like to say "thank you" to Gene and you, really enjoyed reading your posts.

Hollis

BTW, This is my son's first hunting season.

Forgive the hijack, but this statement reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day. There's much ballyhoo over 'stopping power' and 'one shot kills' coming out of theater, and besides the Hollywierd influcence, I think another big reason is a significant lack of hunting experience in today's youth. Anyone that's hunted big game knows that even the 'one shot' larger hunting calibers (i.e. .308, 30-06, 7mm, etc) rarely put the animal down immediately. You can get a good sidelong shot that perforates both lungs, shreds the heart and fractures the shoulders, and you'll still follow a 50m bloodtrail to find the body before the animal bleeds out and stops. A buddy went antelope hunting last week with his .308, got a lucky frontal shot that hit low on her chest, split the sternum, lacerated the heart and just about field dressed her on the spot, and she still ran/jumped 25m before coming to a stop. Folks that don't hunt just don't understand the power of the will to live despite mortal wounds, I think.

Mr. MAB:

Don't tell us -- a M-14 scope mount that won't hold zero? Imagine that! He, he, he.

I had the opportunity to work with some fellows who had six or eight Super Match M-14s made into what Rick and I know as the 'M-25'. These rifles were used in combat recently. I believe they used the ARMS mounts Rick mentioned and the rifles were made very well by an exceptional armorer I know. The mounts were lock tited into place and within about a hundred rounds of M-118 LR and M-80 ball, every single one had loosened up and lost zero. It was almost impossible to do a thing aside from welding the mount onto the receiver to have confidence that the mount wouldn't come loose. That is the nature of mounts and M-14s from my experience.

BTW -- I recall one of these rifles that would not hold worth a damn with either M-118 or M-852 but would shoot M-80 ball like it was the best match grade ammo you could get. No reason known to man why that particular 14 didn't shoot worth a damn with the 'match grade' stuff but shot M-80 to a minute constantly. That is the nature of the M-14 -- you won't know what you have until you shoot it.

There are reasons why the Army finally got rid of the M-14 as a service rifle and for snipers. In terms of the snipers, you just mentioned one reason. The other is trying to get them to shoot consistently well and the fact that they will shit the bed in terms of holding accuracy without any real reason.

Personally, I would have great confidence in a new M-14 as a service rifle. I wouldn't have that confidence with one in a sniper configuration unless it was significantly altered from its original design and that would probably bring a host of new problems to its design that I wouldn't want to face.

It was fun shooting when it still reigned as the best service rifle for competitive shooting but it disappeared from the firing line as fast as it disappeared from general issue to the Army. And for the same reasons.

Unfortunately, I just don't know of any 'out of the box' gas operated 7.62 that will shoot to the degree of accuracy demanded by precision shooters. All of them seem to need a 'guru' who has spent many years with that particular design in order to make them into something dependable.

My advice -- don't use a M-14 for the job you are describing. It does put more kinetic energy into something but you have to hit that something first.

Gene

I concur w/gene.
I've always liked the M21(later the M25) but it came down to nostalgic reasoning in the end as that's the weapon I 1st learned on in Army Sniper school...later, after attending SOTIC and taking things up a notch with real precision shooting I had to stand by bolt guns.
Though many opinions are voiced over SR-25s, that ended up being my working gun on a sniper tm. Just had to find a good gun - it was a love/hate thing for many guys. But for a gas/sniper weapon she couldn't be beat out to 700m (168gr) and made engaging additional tgts before they could hide an easier chore. Used the Leupold scope/rings on the rail mount just like my M24. The best thing I can say is that it was consistent and versatile.

Gene & One Zero,

I just found out today that the 14's will be used specifically in situations that will require "quick" follow up shots (what this means in a law enforcement situation is beyond me). They will also be the go to rifles used at night with a certain NOD made by ATN. I think we are heading into a world full of you-know-what, but, on the brighter side I won't be there when it happens.:)

You gentlemen wouldn't have any ideas on how to accurize a British L1A1 would you?:munchin

I tried explaining this very point in a recent Firearms class and it went way over half of the classes head. I guess some people just don't understand what oxgenaited (sp?) blood does.


Be very very glad you are no where near this project. Because when one of your officers use's it in the capacity that they intend to use it in and it shits the bed. Money will flow out of your department like whine at the final super...

Good luck trying to change their minds.

MAB32, I'll ask around for you. I haven't heard it been done, though.

Smokin Joe,

Yep, it sure will, and if and when it happens it will be posted here first.



Huey14,

I will be first to tell you that I have fallen in love with this rifle. It is accurate enough as a MBR, mags are inexpensive, it shoots darn near everything i feed it and have yet in 7 years experienced a malfunction that wasn't my fault. ANY info you can give me will be helpful. I am on FalFiles constantly looking for accessories and info.

Ahhhhh, sorry guys, don't mean to hijack the thread.:(

Guns and such
 

Well after following this thread for days now all I can say is I'm going to drag my .30-06 M1 and myself out behind the shed and hide. Just something about that "ping" as the clip ejects out the top to make a person want to plink with it all day long.

An M14/M1A will be the next toy I go hunting for. I'll have to keep this thread handy.

We were out in the jungle and Bailey comes to me and says he needs to go back in and can I call for a bird. I ask him why and he says his bedding has "broken". Well, Jack Maroney and I had had a small difference of opinion back at Devens and as my punishment I was the range officer on Saturdays for the 10th Group markmanship team for some prolonged period of time so I actually knew what NM and M21 bedding looked like. So sure enough the bedding on Bailey's M21 was falling out. I didn't think we had enough det cord and C4 to blow a LZ for a bird so I just told him to take the scope off and we probably weren't going to be shooting very far in that dam jungle any way. :D

Thing was we finally get back to the rear and Bailey heads off to the Sniper School and they can't get his rifle bedded and cured in time for him to go back out with us and he misses a whole mission.

Need Help w/ M14 Build/Optics
 

Gentleman,

I know this thread hasn't been replied to in while, but in an attempt not to open an unnecessary thread I will post my question here first.

I am currently building an M14 variant and I would like some advice on optics and some QP analysis on the build itself. Thanks in advance.

After a ton of research I have ordered a J Allen stock to increase accuracy. Originally, I was going to drop in my SOCOM 16 internals into the rifle, but I have been advised that it will not be able to accurately engage targets in the 800M range which seems logical.

I have spoken with the only company in the US that builds forged recievers and bolt assemblies, and will be finalizing an order with them shortly. I still have some issues with barrel selection though. I am currently leaning towards a chrome moly Chriterion 18.5. The PSG I have been talking to has explained to me that I would potentially be better off with a standard steel barrel, but he cannot seem to justify why it is better than a chrome moly/chrone lined barrel.

Finally, I am looking at a Mark 8 CQBSS 1.1x8 to top off then entire package. Anyone out there actually had any experience with this optic since it is fairly new? I understand it is expensive, but my sniper section is telling me I am better off spending equal if not more money on glass as I do the gun.

I am essentially looking to be able to accurately engage mid range targets with a weapon system that is not the the typical 7.62 AR. Any and all criticism to the build and/or optic is welcome/appreciated. Thank you.

-Apto

Part I
 

This is something I wrote a year ago for people that were willing what goes into making an M14 into a decent target rifle, and it was well received. All of the points are still the same...the M14 is obsolete as a competition arm, and you are much the wiser to not go down the expensive route of making one shoot. Throw all of the tricks at it, and it will only be as good as a 950.00 RRA A2NM. I keep mine around as a toy, a novelty, something to remind me of the good old days that I missed by a good ten years.

Part II
 

Part II

Reminds me of a wiseass comment made by a diehard .30 cal shooter at a local match a few years ago. He was overheard sneering about "all the wussies shooting girlie guns". IIRC the comment that shut him up was "yes, but at least we're shooting manly scores". Given that he was > 60 points behind the leader (on a 500 pt. match) we didn't hear much from him for the rest of the day. FWIW - I'll keep my M1As and M1Gs for nostalgia, meantime I'm saving the expensive ammo and serious shooting for the AR platforms.

I like my M14, and I still endeavour to shoot a 480/500 with it one of these days. It's more satisfying to do well with it as opposed to the AR, but when it comes right down to it, it is an inferior system. When it comes to chasing my Presidents 100 tab, or finishing out my Rifle Distinguished badge, the AR is where it's at.

I might build another one around the 155gr bullets in the future; the newer Sierra Palma bullet is much better than the old one, and it is easy to make it shoot. Sierra also came out with a new 120 (might be 125) grain bullet that would work pretty good for 200 yards. It might make it easier, but even with all the tricks, it will never be as simple/easy as an AR.

The rack-grade configuration is probably the most useful configuration that an M14 comes in; Any of the other configurations, and you should have to have a certain GT score to even be allowed to carry one.

[QUOTE=SomethingWitty;480979]I might build another one around the 155gr bullets in the future; the newer Sierra Palma bullet is much better than the old one, and it is easy to make it shoot./QUOTE]

I thought the .308 development essay that you posted mentions while the 155 rules at palma match, it does not fare too well out of a semi auto platform from lost MV

The 155gr bullets are used in International Palma because that is what the rules allow for; US Palma rules do not have a bullet weight limit. As a result, a few people shoot the heavier bullets for their decreased wind deflection. The 185 Berger that the AMU uses in their AR10's is one of the best bullets out there. I shoot the 155's in my bolt-gun because that is what the international standard is right now, and shooting at the international level is my long-term goal. (If I am able to find time for it.)

There have been 155gr bullets that have came out in the last 5 years that are better than the old Palma bullet (2155). The newer 155gr Sierra (2156) will have identical wind-drift numbers at 2750fps as the 175gr Sierra has at 2600fps. That should be do-able with an M14, although I might take the step of having an under-sized gas-port, or a vented gas plug, or both.

Both bullets are still better (wind drift) than the standby 168gr bullet; However it is just about impossible to make the 168 not shoot...I am pretty sure I could put it in the case backwards, and still be able to clean the 200 yard target.

The thing that would merit chambering an M14 (or .308 across the course rifle) around the 155gr bullets, is that I would only have to buy one kind of bullet for all of my .308 rifles, and I could have reduced power loads for rapid fire strings, without giving anything up at 600 yards.

And the only thing that would merit shooting an M14 in an Across the Course competition is just to be different than everyone else; and with that in mind, I might paint my stock a nice vibrant bubblegum pink. And yell "GET SOME" every time the target goes down. At that point, I would be there just to remind everyone that I am having A LOT more fun than they are.

Back to being realistic; if I had access to a steady diet of M118LR, that's what I would shoot.

That makes sense, at 600yards the 155 should perform still out of gas gun.

Concur with the M14 (M1A) in XTC matches. My HP coach actually went distinguished a 2nd time with his M1A. Being the proud "once a marine, always a marine" scout sniper honor grad that he is, he made it one of life's goal to master the M1A. Yes, $$$$$ of mod equal to another match AR and more $$$$$ of ammo experimentations.

When I first tried M1A though, I thought I found an instant ticket to master/high master. With that loooong sight radius, my offhand scores could not drop under 95.....but then my position during sitting and prone rapid was so destroyed with each shot to the point the scores were too embarassing to mention (it revealed so much slack/deficiency that when I transitioned back to AR my scores went up!). Since then I wanted to shoot HP service rifle in .308. Alas, the OBR is not allowed, although the SR25/M110 is :boohoo

How do you go double distinguished in Service Rifle? :p I am guessing he just got up the the level where he would be able to go Distinguished with it if he were actually elgible for Leg Points. Although, if they had rocker-bars for every different service rifle, that would be amusing to say the least...I would want them all, even if they did look ridiculous.

I still have 2 points to get; maybe I will do it with an M14 just so I can say that "I went Distinguished on the M14." Making it hot-pink would just be icing on the cake, and all of the strange looks would be worth it.

The M110 for Service Rifle was a silly move, and I understand part of the reason it was approved, but it is as much of a Service Rifle as an M24 is.

Since I like to kick dead horses...
 

Here is a decent article about reloading for the M14.

PDF WARNING
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf

M14-DMR/Sniper
 

Recently, I aquired a Vortex PST 4-16 SFP MIL/MIL scope in the mail. I finally got out to the range today and was able to mount it on my M14-DMR. My M14-DMR is the same gun I shot in the 2011 M1A match with fairly good results, but I changed the stock for a McMillan M2A that was an OIF bring-back.

Overview

A lot of people denigrate the M14 as a Sniper Weapon System as it is fairly fragile; which is fairly accurate statement. It's not as rock solid as the M24/M3 Ultra combo which is almost impossible to fuck up; but it is still a much more proven system than the M110 system. My opinion of the M110 comes from people that have gotten to use the rifle, and while it is very accurate, it is not very reliable. A lot of soldiers are/have been unhappy with the rifle because the tolerances is so tight that if you shoot it with the suppressor, you will have to clean it after a magazine. There have also been issues with trigger breaking. I think that the concept of a sub-MOA semi auto sniper rifle at the expense of reliability is silly...a reliable 1 MOA rifle is sufficient.

In order to use the M14 as an effective SWS, one has to pay very close attention to almost every little detail. The barrel cannot be free-floated, and it must have a certain amount of tension on it in order to shoot well. Changing the tension between the gas system and stock will alter the point of impact. Shooting the rifle with the bipod on concrete vs sand/dirt will change the point of impact also. Basically, you need to approach it with the idea that your rifle is a tuning fork, and that the slightest error will make it sing off-key.

Another major shortcoming for the M14 is the scope mounts. The Brookfield mounts work well like the one from Smith Enterprise work well, but they have a very specific procedure to mount them, and once they are mounted properly, they really should have green loc-tite applied to the screws. The screw that holds the mount into the side of the receiver needs to be properly torqued with a 65-inch-pounds, and if it is over-tightened, the screw threads will strip; this is to keep numbnuts from stripping the threads in the receiver itself. The mounts are also adjustable, and need to be carefully tweaked in order for the rifle to zero correctly; because the specs of the cut in the side of receiver where the mounts hook in is not very carefully controlled, it is not as simple as having a 20 MOA decline mount like you do on a bolt-gun.

Once the rifle is zeroed, you still need to check that the scope is going to have enough adjustment to zero at 100 and make it out to 1000. For .308 M118LR, that means having almost 45 MOA or 13 Mils of elevation, and having a little extra is a good idea so that you can have ample windage adjustments.

At the Range

I started the day at the range, and mounted the scope on the rifle. I had to remove the iron-sight because the scope would not clear the hood of my rear sight. I spent quite a bit of time dicking around with the mount; it needed to be adjusted so that I would have adequate elevation to reach 1000 yards, and still be able to zero at 100. I spent most of the day shooting off of sand bags because the bipod is too tall for the gun.

My overall view of the Vortex PST is that it is a very good scope. I did not have any problems with it, and it works as advertised. The turret/adjustments are much nicer than the Leupold Mark IV and M3A scopes that I also got to play with, but the glass on the Leupolds was noticeably brighter. However, I was able to resolve bullet holes at 200 yards that were on white paper, as well as on black pasters. I did not do any comparison with the lined/numbered charts, and I think my uncorrected vision (I am supposed to wear glasses but don't.) plays a part in how well I can resolve things. The shimmed zero stops work as advertised and are a good idea; I have my zeros written down so that if the turret shoots loose, I can tighten it back up, bottom it out on the zero stop, and count the clicks up from bottom.

After I had the rifle zeroed at 100 yards, I spent the rest of the time shooting groups at 100, and checking the adjustments on the scope. The scope worked flawlessly like it does in the youtube videos.

I do not consider myself a very talented benchrest/sandbagger. I probably shoot a thousand rounds off of a shooting mat for every ten I fire off of a bench. The M14 is one of the more difficult rifles to shoot accurately from a rest; the hammer is quite heavy, and if you dry fire the gun, you may notice the crosshairs shift when it falls. Trigger control can also be more challenging with the pistol grip stocks because the M14 trigger lever does not travel straight back like an AR15; the M14 was designed around a traditional stock, and the motion of the trigger reflects that. With that being said, doing well with the M14 comes back to paying attention to small details, and patience.

Since I like to brag, here are the measurements of my better groups.

I did a test on the elevation consistency toward the end of the day, after I hard fired 70 rounds through the barrel. I just wanted to use the last of the ammo I loaded for the rifle. The groups were as follows, with the farthest distance between shots listed. I measured from center-center with some calipers; that seems to be what the cool kids are doing.

* 3 shot group at +1 mil = .375

* 3 shot group at 0 mil = .990

* 3 shot group at -1 mil = .554

Earlier, I shot a 5 shot group off of the sand bags, and then off the bipod to check if/how much POI shift there is between the two. There was about a 1/2 minute shift upwards from using the bipod; however I am going to repeat the test when I get a shorter, more comfortable bipod.

* 5 shot group off sand-bags= .536 (elevation spread .200)

* 5 shot group off bipod= 1.401 (7 shots from the two 5 shot groups were within .800, 2 shots were thrown about an inch higher, and one was thrown about 1/2 inch high and left.)

There were other groups shot during the day, but I did not cut them out and put them in my data book. Realistically, I expect this rifle to do around 3/4 MOA; not much better, and not much worse. It and I might get more consistent in the future, but my training focus is not on shooting groups so I can claim my M14 is exceptional.

I finished up the day by shooting cold-bore shots at 100 and 200 yards with M118LR, which runs a little hotter than my hand loads. Impact at 100 yards was .9 inches right, and 1.06 inches high at 100 yards. Impact at 200 yards was 1.1 inches hight and .727 left at 200 yards.

Future Plans

With the rifle zeroed, and the scope working well, the next step is to get zeros out to 1000 yards, and to graft the data with clear tape to the stock, as well as loading ammo that will duplicate M118LR. I will probably replace the NM sight with a USGI sight, or modify the NM sight so that it will fit below the scope. A new, shorter bipod is also in the future.

Actually, OSUT/SOPC/SFAS is in the near future, and I probably wont see this rifle for a good 6-12 months. :lifter

man, you really love the M14 doncha :D I better not drag the beloved OBR to comparison.
While I put 5 M118LR through the M110 to a barely two-to-three .308 wide holes (Rick B can verify, he was spotting. I think I put the group here somewhere), I actually heard that due to inconsistent QC in mass production, its accuracy leaves much to be desired ie. during the intl. sniper comp at Benning. Thus, not meeting the curriculum demand originally set for the M24.

Agree with the sub-MOA take. Although I'd like to know my rifle is capable of it, if I can hold 1 MOA after all the dashing, dancin, and prancin I'm happy as a duck in water.

Mine shoots...Okay.

Shots marked with white were off of the bipod. Unmarked was a 5 shot group off of the bench.