a big mean dog?

NDD's ideas are brillant. If we are going to pass laws against stupidity, why start there? Cops don't have the time or resources to go after or lock up folks who are engaged in non-viloent crimes against property now (like car theft). Which criminals should we not put into prison so we can put those morons that don't pull over into prison. While they are chasing a violent bad guy, which cops should be desiginated to stop and pull over the assholes that don't get out of the way? Thank God our courts are not very busy, they can certainly handle the influx of new miscreants. Can you imagine the false arrest suits. We always felt that simply pummelling those that failed to pull over about the head, neck and shoulders was effective plus, it had the added benefit of reducing stress while educating the general public. NDD are you a closet lawyer? cause this sounds like something a starving lawyer would propose to boost his fortunes.

One additional idea. The LEO’s place a .50 sniper rifle on each pursuit helicopter. As soon as the asshole bad guy is seen running from the blue lights a .50 round penetrates the engine block. If the BG runs and attempts to “hijack� another vehicle, the sniper then places one more .50 round through the BG.

I agree with NDD, running from the police should carry a HARSH penalty. But running away and placing innocent lives in harms way is inexcusable and should carry some severe ramifications.

I do not care about “getting tough on crime,� I want to see Americans get tough on criminals instead.

Team Sergeant

You are killing me with this one....

Quote:

I think if one looks at the stats, more cops are killed each year than SF.

I think if you check the stats you will find that a very incorrect statement.
While the LEO’s in the US number in the millions you’ll find the numbers of SF at any given moment in time is in the few thousands.

Team Sergeant

Damn noslack,

I figured you would get hammered for that little rant.

NoSlack might be right. There are more police than SF guys that's true and the budgets of all the cities combined probably make up more than SF gets for training but I'll bet more gets spent on training individual SF soldiers compared to the amount spent on training invidual officers.

Just the length of police training compared to the Q-course would make that true. Police don't go off on month long training missions. The police don't do the same kind of work as soldiers though so they don't need to ask the S-3 to spring for over $100,000 for airplanes for deployment or redeployment. (I think that's about the average cost of air to a training mission) I'm also guessing the police never asked the S-3 for a Grand for sunglasses and I know of one team that did exactly that.

The type of training SF needs as opposed to the type of traing the police require makes it hard to compare the two.

DAMN! Why didn't I think about shooting the block out with the BFR?. Great idea. Of course we'll have to get a Army dude to do the actual shooting.:D

Oh it ain't over.....
 

Noslack71:

Do this simple math equation...

I land on the ground in Iraq the beginning of Sept. I speak with an SF A-team who states...

"One more month we are out of here, our year is up".

The majority of LEO's go home every night to momma...wife...kids...shower...mattress...boyfrien d...girlfriend...dog...cat...rats...etc.

Get my drift?

Heck the Coast Guard has been doing it to stop "Fast Boats" transporting drugs to US soil. If a Coast Guard E-3 can shoot out a fast boat engine I think a few well trained SWAT types could do the same with outstanding results. Think about it, an engine block at say 300 meters, think you could hit it from a moving helo?

TS

Crad,
Even you? Things weren't always like they are right now. Training doesn't mean money. You're going to measure training by dollars spent per trainee? How do you count the best training we ever did - 500 meters from the team room on the Mata Mile?

How are you going to count those countless hours when it was raining outside and we were in the team room doing IV or comms classes?

How do you factor in the "Hey, we're going to do a COMEX in the Uhwarrie, anybody want to go? And you send one, and he comes back and trains the rest of the Team?

How are you going to count the hour every afternoon the SGM spent in the Team Rooms talking? You know, that SGM with 5 tours in Vietnam?

I learned an awful in company-level hotwashes and sitting in the Master Key hootch in the afternoons drinking beer and diagraming on a white board with a magic marker.

Ever hear of hip-pocket training? Costs nothing. Very valuable.

I learned something new everything day I was on a Team. And tried to pass it on to somebody else. Still do.

Training is about attitude, not resources.

Training is a way of life on a Team. Its not for the LEOs I have known or by what I have seen them say here. I am sure there are exceptions.

For a minute, forget the Real World Missions and focus on the training missions. How much extra training do police officers get? When something above and beyond regular police duties jumps up, like the LA riots for example, how much extra training have they had to deal with that sort of thing? How much money is allotted to extra training? Combat drivng classes, riot control, sniper shooting etc?

Probably not much because it doesn't happen often. SF, on the other hand, needs to train constantly for every contingency because of the nature of the their job. They need the money they get and more (there's never enough) because they have to be ready for whatever they come across in whatever country they deploy to.

Soldiers act as medics, demo, commo, intel, weapons...

The police are police. Big difference.

Look at it this way NDD - Unless you are on the team and living the life you don't know what goes on with a team so you don't what the training is on a daily basis regardless of how many books written by insiders that you've read or how many years you've been married to an SF soldier. You either are SF or you aren't. I know what I see and that's it. I think the police and SF are two very different but equally importnat jobs and neither gets the amount of respect, money or training time they need.

So, from me you get a dual out look but not an insiders outlook.

The worst thing is I set up a test and exercise in Panama for that very thing. ST 4 came over and we did it.

Pilot - "Ok, let's shoot it."

BAM!

Pilot - "Holy shit! TIME OUT!"

Took us forever to find something that would cushion the recoil and not shake the bird out of the air. Great time was had by all.

How much do they make happen? You can't wait for it to be sent from above like a gift. You have to go out and take it.

Ah yes, but could you get the local city council to approve this new “pursuit intervention SOP�?

You think it scares the sheep to see an AR mounted in a patrol car.

I know a couple of motivated individuals who work on their shooting skills right regular. High speed pursuit and riot training might be a little harder to arrange but thinking on it that could be not only creative but fun. I should ask our neighborwood watch block captain.

IMO it could be the wave of the future. It does not take a whole lot of training to hit an engine block from 300m no matter how fast the vehicle is traveling, and I’m sure the PD’s involved would have emplaced SOP’s as to when the engine block would be destroyed such as the BG car slowing to make a turn etc. The media impact would also be great as the asshole gets out of the car with a stupid look on his face as he only traveled 5 miles before he was reduced to being a pedestrian again.

As any LEO tool, used correctly it should not scare the sheep.

Team Sergeant

Question:

If a car is traveling at high speed (let's say 80 mph) and you take out the engine block, what happens to the driver's ability to control the car? I am not asking whether the engine will continue to provide power, but rather whether taking out the engine block is going to ensure a serious accident.

And I'm just asking. I don't know the answer. :)

RL:

Once a helo has the perp spotted. I would call off the ground pursuit...or least have them pull back.

Sooner or later the perp is going to either end up in a non-populated area or have to slow down.

That's when you take the shot.

AIO...Adapt. Improvise and Overcome.

Great stuff here. However, before we go putting very large pieces of flying metal into engine blocks, which would indeed be very effective; how about electronic counter-measures? Such as being able to deploy a device either from the car, or placed on the road like stop sticks, Electro-magnetic pulse device, that would take out the car's electrical system and simply cause it to stop operating.

I know they are working on this technology, but have no idea how far along it is. Also, it would be a marked inprovement from the stop sticks, while effective, also causes the driver to lose control of the vehicle possibly causing injury to other motorists or pedestrians.

If put on the ballot, I would vote for the BFG initiative. Only if the Team Sergeant will design and staff the course for those who will be trained to use it.

Where do I begin? Team Sgt, lets do the math, where do you want to start, 9/11? There are not millions of cops, look at how many are killed and injured in the line of duty each year. SF is trained to Win their encounters while cops are trained to tie, ie not destroy. Puts a bit of a different flavor in a fight if one side is constrained from going all out.
Guy, I am sorry, I thought the draft ended! While you are over in Iraq who is here in the homeland protecting the families? Do you want to skimp on the training for the folks protecting your family while you are deployed?
We are and have been manufacturing violent criminals. We have become very efficient as a society at creating a very violent and dangerous sub-element of our society. Like it or not, the average cop comes from the lower middle or upper lower class. The3 majority of cities cannot afford the cost of vetting these folks as well as your average soldier in a commo MOS is. They get 8-16 weeks training, are forced to join a municipal union. They are trained by folks who have been trained by others not to rock the boat.
Many of you would be howling like banshees if the media treated your missions with the same shallow indifference they do on Cops and other media BS programs.
Washington State patrol used to pull alongside cars that were running and shoot holes in the engine blocks. That policy went by the wayside about the same time they quit requiring troopers to be 6 ft tall white men.
There are literally, millions of convicted/non caught violent felons living in the US. Our population is about 265 million just 1% is somewhere around 2.65 million. They are murdering, raping, robbing and injuring Americans by the bushel year in and year out. We as a society simply do not want to face these problems. Rather than awaken our collective conscience we feel better ignoring it. Ghetto cops are part of an Army of occupation. I left the DC police when I became part of Marion Barry's body guard detail. I went back into the Army so I could at least be allowed and encouraged to win a fight or two. Look at how many of our people are being killed, maimed and assaulted sexually and otherwise here at home every year. Those are `apparently acceptable losses. I am a trigger puller by training, experience and inclination, at this stage of my life I just wonder where it will do the most good.

Great point! I have to say though that we have a tendency to look out for each other fairly well.

I would prefer 1000 times over that the man of this household was home nights to check out those strange noises in the back yard that send the dogs high order, but failing that I'll settle for a highly trained police force that can get here in record time. Although, we do have friends with guns that are always ready to help out.

I don't know if it's true of all SF folks but it is with our friends - We tend to "clump" together. There are half a dozen 7th Grp guys in my neighborhood. I turn to them on a regular basis when I have a small problem like noises in the back yard or a non-group neighbor who is bugging me.

Roger that.

Couple of notes. We do not have a union. We cannot quit and move if we do not like the boss, or our jobs.

When I tell one of my people to go do something that will almost certainly get him killed, he cannot go "Screw you, Jack!" without some pretty serious repercussions.

When SSG Schmuckatelli, whose wife is eight months pregnant with their first child, gets orders to get down to Green Ramp and palletize for a little trip overseas for a year, he cannot quit.

When he gets where he is going, and has to work 80 hour weeks, he gets the same pay, no overtime.

When a local club needs some security, they don't call him and offer him $50 an hour, off the books, to come down and work the door.

Who volunteered to protect my family while I am gone? Not sure, SCOTUS says that LE has no obligation to protect anybody. The local cops in my neighborhood volunteered to do police work, and if it gets too hard, they can quit and do something else tomorrow.

Do you think the media only picks on LEOs? Do you remember late Vietnam, or read the paper these days?

Wouldn't be a cop for five times what they pay them here. Too much second guessing, BS, and political correctness.

OTOH, don't sell who we are or what we do short, or think that we are overpaid, or overtrained.

You really believe that, pick up the glove, and come to the SFQC for your share.

TR

Reaper; did Viet Nam AMERICAL & 101st, and a place called Dong ba Thinh attached not assigned to 5th Grp. Did Central America 83-86, CTTF &CNTF, was the active Army's primary advisor to 297th SF MI CO(USAR) Each of my children were born in different countries on different continents. My wife and I were held at gunpoint( twice, once while she was pregnant) while they threatened to kill me and assault her by PDF secret police during Manny Noriega's tour. Currently hold a retired ID card. Most of the SOF soldiers. Would Love to grab a ruck and come back recruiter says no thanks. Neither cops nor soldiers are drafted. Make you the same offer you made me. Go be a ghetto cop for awhile, pick up that glove for your share. Then, lets compare notes.
I seem to remember those same fellows you mention as being able to tell their bosses to "screw off" running into the Trade Centers on 9/11 while everyone else was running out, even though they had no obligation to do so according to you and SCOTUS. You might take some of your own advice and read some of those accounts of the people you speak so derisively of. I am unsure if it is the message or the messenger that offends you.
The point I was trying to make is one Aristotle did much more succiently 2500+ years ago. Poverty is the parent of revolution.
Rome rotted from the inside. The terrorists are here, they have been here, we call them criminals. There are millions of them! America attacks the problems it sees, it does not see these problems. Acknowledging the real costs would mean resonsibility to any society with a conscience. Rather than doing that, it is simply better for society to ignore them. So Reaper here is the question, in the last ten years which group has killed and terrorized more innocent Americans al Queda or the criminals in this country? Which group have we as a country spent more assets on trying to defeat during the same time period. Which group is more likely to destroy the fabric of our society?

NS, I’m not going to argue with you about numbers, fact, law enforcement officers currently in the US number about one million, total officer deaths in 2003, is 133. Let me assist you with the math, that’s about one officer for every seven thousand five hundred on duty.

We have a much higher causality rate.

Go fuck with someone else, I’m not going to play your game.

Team Sergeant

First thank you for your service and support of my brother SF soldiers. I take it that you are not SF qualified. I was in Hondo the same time frame you were, in Juticalpa, Soto Cano, and Tegu.

Now take a deep breath, and relax. You seem to want to lash out here at someone. You took a shot at the Team Sergeant and Guy, then at me and now want to argue about a SCOTUS decision. Obviously, you wish to make this personal. If you are cruising for a fight here, I'll be your huckleberry.

I worked as a dispatcher for four years, so I have about as much knowledge about being a LEO as you do about being an SF soldier. This is an SF site, not an LEO site, so expect a certain perspective on things here.

I already stated: "Wouldn't be a cop for five times what they pay them here. Too much second guessing, BS, and political correctness." Did you miss that in your rant?

I am sorry, I seem to remember quite a few cases of "blue flu" and police strikes over the last 40 years, when has the military mutinied and refused to do their sworn duty over pay?

Are you trying to wrap yourself in a flag and rest on the laurels of the NY LEOs who died in the WTC? Not sure you want to go down that road. I count 71 LEOs lost in the line of duty, and 343 firefighters. 125 military and civilian DoD personnel died in the Pentagon. Tragic deaths all, some as heroes, many acts of valor (and cowardice) unknown. Have I spoken of them before this? I don't think so. What is the relevance of this point? Some good officers out there, and some who would be bad garbagemen. One shot two SF students two years ago playing cowboy. Is he the example you want cited?

Thank you for your advice. Do you presume that I am ignorant? I have read the accounts, know the history, suggest that you do the same WRT SF losses. I never said a word about LE losses. Will you guarantee me that none of them ever did any of the things that I mentioned before to differentiate between SF and LEOs? What is offensive to me is your attitude, your attacks on my SF brothers, and your attempts to spin the topics to suit your own interest, all the while, as a guest on an SF owned and operated board. You want to brag on the soldiers who ran back into the Pentagon without gear or training to try and help?

It occurs to me that if you honestly believe that terrorists and criminals are the same, you need to review the definitions thread and turn in your weapon till you fully understand the difference.

Millions of them incarcerated as well, billions spent to apprehend and keep them there. Are you ranting about social responsibility, conscience, injustice, poverty, what? Are you one of those who think we should disarm, stand down the military, and redistribute the money in additional welfare payments to the needy? Doubling LE salaries? Establishing a National Registry and a police state? Anarchy? What are you advocating here, and what is your proposed solution? Complaints without recommendations are just gripes and snivels.

Killed? Until 911, LEOs had killed more citizens in the US than terrorists ever had. Many of them no doubt deserved it. Some, like 1LT Tomeny and SSG Phelps, did not. With a 3,000 death morning, obviously, the scales changed.

Terrorized? Completely different subject. Since criminals are primarily committing crimes for the sake of immediate gratification, and the only ones in that group attempting to influence opinion MAY be organized crime, little terrorism there.

On the other hand, since 911, anyone who has been afraid to fly because of the possibility of terrorism, travel overseas, go to a public gathering, visit public places, thought that the US should change its policies, etc. has been a victim of international terrorism.

Prior to 911, the domestic law enforcement budgets of all Federal, State, and local police departments FAR exceeded the piddling amount spent on AT and CT. It likely still does, if you only count direct AT and CT costs.

I agree that over the past 10 years, the average American is far more likely to be killed by a criminal (or an LEO) than a terrorist. In the previous ten years, NO citizen in the U.S. was killed by a foreign terrorist group. You were MUCH more likely to be wrongfully killed by an LEO than by a terrorist. That is the way statistics work.

Riddle me this. Given: Criminals killed more US citizens on the average over the past ten years than terrorists. Will you make that guarantee for the next ten years?

There are many factory- built thermonuclear weapons unaccounted for, and unknown numbers of homemade weapons and dirty bombs out there, which have already been used for terrorism. There are tons on chemical weapons, easily manufactured, on the market and in the hands of states known to sponsor terrorism. There are modified strains of biological agents out there that you cannot even conceive of, developed by the Soviets, Chinese, North Koreans, Iran, Syria, and God knows who else. Many of these require no weaponization to deliver. Any (or many) of the tens of thousands of people entering this country legally and otherwise could be a carrier. Let's say that a 300KT weapon is brought into this country and detonated in a major metropolitan area. Immediate deaths could exceed 1,000,000 people, another million or more die later, industry is disrupted, commerce wrecked. After about five seconds of that rolling fireball, do you still think that your stats would still reflect the criminals to be the greater threat to this country? A highly communicable, airborne, lethal pathogen arrives in this country simultaneously from 12 major cities. On the long flights, breathing recirculated air, the carrier infects everyone else on the plane, who proceed to their departure gates for additional flights, etc. Millions die, martial law is declared to enforce quarrantine areas, the country is isolated internationally, nothing in or out for years. Do you still see criminals as a greater threat?

The criminal kills on a small scale, usually for immediate reward. He gets away, kills again, eventually gets caught. Tragic for those involved, no doubt. We miss one bad guy with one of the above scenarios, 911 could look like amateur hour, this country would be wrecked for years.

Things change. Societies have to change, and adapt, or perish. You might want to review your history. Rome fell after they quit being warriors taking the war to the bad guys, and started building walls defending an increasingly dependent underclass at home. If we fail just once at the wrong time in the GWOT, this country could be finished.

And yes, it could be an $18,000 per year rookie cop that catches him here at home. Like Lee and Sherman though, I prefer to take the war to the enemy, and do my fighting on his turf.

You have a very SF day, and I hope you think on this before responding.

TR

Agreed, that is why we do.

That is why atleast once a month I take who ever wants to go out and we shoot.

If no one wants to go then I go on my own. I wish I could shoot more but we don't have the facilities.

As far as driving goes. Hahaha we don't have any training other that what is provided in the Academy. We do not have the opportunity, we all beg for it but it is not a priority for our admins. Any driving training we do is totally unofficial and pretty friggin dangerous, b/c its a sort of trail an error aka learning by brail type of driving. We do it away from civilains so that is not a factor but it is still completely unprofessional.

Why because that is all we have to work with. Some will ask well why don't you have to qualifiy with your car just like with your firearm. Well, the way our admin looks at it is, "thats why you have a drivers license right." Our response is ya right whatever your fucking say.

TS, I love your idea, when is training and can I come?

Joe,
The main reason training like driving is high in the States is the insurance is outrageous.

What is the training priority for you guys? According to the admins I mean.

It’s not, at all.

It’s pretty friggin sad really. We are a small agency about 82 sworn and about 120 detention Officers. But we are the second largest county in the nation at 180,000 square miles. We encompass most of the Grand Canyon and Lake Powell (to name some familiar spots) From Sedona, Az to Utah and from Seligman, Az to Winslow, Az. Its kind of a po-dunk county, b/c we have the longest running Sheriff in the Nation (32 + years in office). Pursuits around here are hit and miss (pardon the pun) but if I had to guess we get one around here (meaning one of the agencies in the area not just the S.O.) about ever 3-5 months or so.

Outside the Academy we get ZERO additional training (unless you count the 14-week FTO program which is mostly pointers nothing more). Our detention officers get nothing at all not even in the academy! And they do armed transports (what I do). Yup I got zero official training in how to drive. I had to seek out my own training and hit guys up on what to do and what not to do. Hence what I said in my earlier posts about learning by Braille. It’s pretty jacked up but when admin says, "ah you don't need to know that stuff it’s a waste of time, money, and man power." What are supposed to do expect go outside the department to gain training?

Here is something else that will make your jaw drop (not to get to far off topic), I am a firearms instructor for my department have been for about 2.5 yrs now and I have been begging for "official training" on AR-15's (I have been taught outside the department again on my own with my own time and money). I want the "official" stamp so I can carry one. They have always told me no way a D.O. is going to carry a rifle! But seeing how you are a firearms instructor we will let you go through the training. I was told this last week. They think that carrying a rifle is to aggressive and completely out of the question for our guys to carry. Even though they transport high profile criminals all over the southwest. Hell, most of our transport guys can't even carry a shotgun.

Pretty sad uh?

Not good at all.

I agree, that and a HOLE bunch of other crap is why the misses wants me to seek employement else where.

I can't say I really blam her though.

That sucks Joe,
I feel for you. My dept is a pretty large dept. We have 2,400 cops and about 1000 sheriff's (Intake only) for a city with a population of over 800,00 not counting the commuters and tourists who bumps that up to well over a million. Our city is 49 square miles with my district being about 11 sq miles.

We have our own academy which means that training is there if you want it. You just have to request the training and pretty much you get it. Except for shooting schools (only for specialized units)

Our dept mandates that you receive refresher EVOC (vehicle) training every 3 years. Me being a ghetto cop, I find that most ghetto cops or cops who have worked the ghetto are pretty good at pursuits.

For patrol and inspectors, You have to qualify twice a year, with pistol, shotgun, and ERIW (less lethal). You're allocated 100 rds hand gun monthly to practice.

For me being in a specialized unit, I get 2 hrs overtime each pay period to shoot my toys off duty. I get unlimited ammo for off duty practice. I'm required to qualify with all my toys every month and to pass a pt test every other month.

Being in a specialized unit, I pretty much get to go to the schools that the average patrol officer can't go.

Even though I gotta put up with lots of crap at work, the only think I really appreciate are the guys in my specialist unit.

I appericate it.

I'm lucky b/c I have alot of really squared away people I work with so its not completely horrible. We just have to FIGHT with admin for every little thing. Its sucks right now b/c I have a total puss for a Sgt. who won't sack up to the admin and ask for extra training or O.T. for training. So we have to accomplish all our training off duty with our own ammo or vehicle.

The hole rifle and driving issue are another story. We will get that with a new Sheriff (maybe we will see who gets elected).

Stay Safe all

pm inbound. :)

Have you thought about Oregon?

Then they wonder why an officer excpends 15 rounds in an incident with no hits.

100 rounds is a warm up. Still, I am sure that some officers fail to use it, and don't feel that they need to.

This is little different than the soldier who gets 10 rounds of 5.56 per year to zero and 40 to qualify. No 9mm, and maybe 20 rounds or so for the SAW or M-240, if they want it and are not primary crew members.

Then they wonder why Officer Johnnie (or Private Joanie) can't shoot. Pitiful.

Joe, you live in a beautiful part of the country, but may be time to move on. How about a local municipal department?

TR

Dry firing?
 

Look or ask...how many people actually go thru the motions of dry firing?

Either with the pistol or rifle.

As far as drivers training. There are many schools that conduct on-site training for either driving or shooting, as well as individuals that are willing to travel to your location to teach either.

They only give us 50 rounds a month when weather and staff permits. So that boils down to about 50 rounds every 3-4 months.

TR, I think your right. Except I couldn't work for the local P.D. way to much politics and they are a statically driven department (read quota's even though they are against federal law), that does not mesh well with my personality. I'm looking farther south closer to the Team Sergeant. :)

I hope no one from work lurks here.

Re: Dry firing?
 

I dry fire 5 days a week.

As for driving.
Admin won't fund the training. We even have a sworn officer who is an admin Sgt who is a driving instructor, but they say they don't have the time, money, or staff in order to have the training.

So we have a driving instructor who works for us but admin won't let it happen. I get excuse after exuse if it isn't one thing its another.

Re: Re: Dry firing?
 

Ummm...I have heard of units using rental cars or cruisers headed to the bone yard and an unused section of highway or runway to practice on. Almost no cost to the unit, if you have your own instructor and some cones.

TR

Unfortunately TR the instructor won't teach us unless it is department sanctioned. And the department won't sanction it b/c we don't need to know according to them. Its total b.s. all the way around. I have hit up everyone I know in patrol and Criminal Investigations on driving tips. Then when I get a chance I practice (not that the department knows).

The department is very non progressive. It takes a considerable amount of effort to get anything changed or updated. The most famous words in our department said by our admin is, "well we have always done it that way." or "We have never need to do that in the past why do we need to do it now."