They have: one was an utter failure, one a shining success. See the posts above about the overly complex and heavy SPEAR ruck, and the rugged, well-built, military-oriented (albeit a little pricey) Kifaru. One was a govt-sponsored catastrophe, the other a private venture that turned into a spiral design process with lots of feedback from the military user.

x2 Razor! My SPEAR (Gregory) ruck is the ruck that holds all of my WET items in the team room... and thats ALL I use it for.

Polar Bear my AstralPlane Overkill was killed by humping too much Army crap in it. I think the PRC-104, DMDG, and GRA-50 combo along with my WET gear finally did it in. My team was pissed off having to divide my ruck up to a more manageable weight to get off the mountain. It almost blew my back out when it failed and it did hurt my knee [naproxen-therapy... whew]. If I was just humping clothes, a camp stove, Nalgene bottles, and tent... it would probably be my choice ruck. But carry a couple radios, few batteries, DMDG or KL43, antennas, laptop, ammo, NODs... well then just give me my ALICE. Its an easier rig to jump. Sure we have the "jump anything pouch" now, but that alone weights 8-ish pounds.

MAB32 the CFP-90 was a failure when I first evaluated it as a PFC in 1993 in Alaska. I blew out ruck #1's sleeping bag compartment just packing it. Ruck #2's seams on the front panel blew out after a few days in the field in -30° weather. And ruck #3 ripped off my back along the aluminum stay's plastic track while we were ski-joring out. Three rucks... and that was just me. All together I think the platoon went thru over 30 rucksacks that FTX. The other test platoon in Fort Drum went through more rucks than us. I'm sure Natick made some improvements, but I'll forego the retest thank you.

Sten, check out Mystery Ranch. Their military pack(s) are designed for and issued to a component of SOCOM (so they say). It looks like it's based on Dana's Astralplane, with mods to carry fins and snowshoes on the outside. Your marketing idea sounds good... might want to start small, though, like maybe a Dive watch that's "Official Issue" to the SEALs :cool:

The Astralplane WAS (supposedly) designed to carry 100 lb+ loads, and the AP Overkill was made w/ 1000 dernier cordura (vice the 700 dernier on the regular model) in the hopes of keeping things like radio btrys, ammo cans, etc. from poking holes in it (why would you carry the ammo can, not take the ammo out? Well, in the USMC ammo techs get aggravated when you hand them back 10,000 rounds of linked 7.62, and nothing to put it in to). I think Dana Gleason sold Dana Design, and only has Mystery Ranch as his pack company.

I use an Astralplane for long climbs. Been tempted to add "one more thing" to it. It is BIG.

Mountaineering means carrying a ton of gear. Add mission esential gear for a military operation, and what surprises me is not that there are so many gear failures, but that there aren't many, many more.

Comparison Photos of Kifaru-CFP-90-Alice
 

Here's a couple pics for comparison of size and suspension systems.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...r/DSC01395.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...r/DSC01394.jpg
Dave

I saw a post with some info on Mystery Ranch in Bozeman, and for what's its worth, I have found the military pack they make (http://www.mysteryranch.com/catalog/...products_id=28) to be top notch. I've only carried it in civilian law enforcement missions, though, so I can't speak to its military usefulness.

In the Corps, we had a few Royal Marine bergens lying around and I found them pretty sturdy, but the Mystery Ranch pack I have is truly awesome. So far, its been down on the SW border, humping radios, sensors, gear, etc. (60 lbs that felt like 40) and all over the Wyoming mountains on backcountry patrol. The only danger is over packing it, and the coyote brown/OD green color has worked well in temperate forests and the high desert.

Expensive as a Kifaru, though - but made in the USA, right in my hometown.

Alice Frame Failure
 

Well, being an IET soldier, I'll call this my $0.01....but seeing as how I've been an IET soldier for nearly 2 years without a delay in training or injury, maybe I have more credibility than most. Anyway, when comparing the alice packs I've had access to and the civilian Lowe Alpine model I've used for about 5 years, I would give anything to use something closer to the internal frame Lowe Alpine. At least with regards to frame and comfort.

Here are my complaints with the Alice frame:
1. I broke a brand-new frame with a 40-50 lbs sandbag in the radio compartment. We were having a competition that day, so everyone just had sand bags, and I figured it would be best to distribute the weight up high. Anyway, as soon as I took up a jog during a level stretch, the frame cracked right in the middle of the cross section, and began to poke me in the back. It was a competition, so I just ignored it... nevertheless, after that it was sooo distracting.
2. Even before I broke that frame and with the other frames I had in basic, I noticed noises and squeaks coming from the joints of the frame. I tried taping them, but that never seemed to help much.
3. No matter how I adjust the straps, the top of the frame always seems to hit me in the back of the neck, which makes it really difficult to look up, or take any kind of prone position--I usually dump the ruck, or loosen the straps when I drop to make it easier.

I will say that during the times we wore flak vests, I hardly notice any discomfort from the thin straps, but the squeaking and getting jabbed in the neck is still an issue.

slipshoe:

Yet another guest who fails to read the rules or follow them. Total lack of SA.

Read all of the stickies and post in the proper place before posting elsewhere again.

TR

I have not really seen anything in here mentioned about the SOF Ruck made by Balckhawk Industires. I know it is supposed to be an improved verions of the ALICE with LOTS of external pockets and such. I have been torn between that, and an internal aluminum frame ALICE for doing some ruck training and camping. How does everyone feel about this pack? http://elitetacticalsources.com/imag.../BlackH172.jpg

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar

Do you really consider "LOTS of external pockets and such" to be an improvement? Take a look at military models of KIFARU. Or even good old ALICE. There are not that many external pockets and it's not without a reason. Well desigend pack with easy access to inside and limited number of extermnal pockets (or none at all) is far better when say running through heavy foliage, getting fast out of vehicle etc. At least that's my own experience and my point of view...

disclaimer:: The below is based solely on my experience as a student at SWC.

If your plan is to train with a ruck for a future shot at SFAS just buy a used large ruck and frame. Put 45lbs in it and move out. Its not just walking with weight on your back you are getting used to but also the way the ALICE pack rides on your shoulders and hips. Nothing else brings pain like the Green Tick. If you are not preping for a future shot at SFAS then by all means purchase what you want, but I would go with an internal frame.

I dont have an SOF ruck so I wont comment on them other than to say I dont buy ANYTHING made by BHI and know many people here who dont either. I want to buy once, not twice.

Kifaru makes great packs. I have both a Marauder and a Zulu and like them both equally well. I have had a few internal frame packs and like the Kifaru line the best. They are well designed comfortable and have a lifetime guarantee.

As for the addition of pockets to the outside being an "improvement;" to those individuals forced to use an ALICE pack the addition of external pockets is a VAST improvement over not having them. I have seen quite a few SF guys and students during my tenure here at SWC carrying modified ALICE packs with pockets sewn to every part of the alice body thats not covered by the frame. I had a few pockets added to mine prior to heading to PH-II and did quite a bit of running thru heavy foliage as well as unassing LMTV's and had no more of a problem with it than anyone of the guys struggling with their 100+ lb rucks without mod'd pockets. The only drawback I see to adding pockets is the more space you have the more you will pack.

As a matter of fact, both my Marauder and Zulu are covered with external pockets. Thats why the PALS are there; for the addidion of pockets as mission dictates.

HTH,

Crip

I do, but what do I know.

Try finding a Claymore, a smoke grenade, a cleaning rod, a first aid kit, or your snivel gear inside a ruck with no pockets. Note the PALS webbing on the outside of the Kifaru rucks and the multitude of accessory pockets that they sell.

James is dead on the money. Most field soldiers would like to add MORE pockets to their ruck.

I wouldn't choose a Blackhawk product if I were serious though.

TR

OK, got the point...

But... that brings another question to my mind. Do you prefer standard packs with fixed combination of pockets or modular packs, which can be customized for the very mission? First solution seems to be quite logical as you always know where is what and you can grab what you need instantly, without even thinking. However, on the other hand, if you can customize the pack before the action, you can also optimize the gear / weapon you take on your back. Which option is more often prefered?

(BTW, now I read & learn)

If you always carry the same gear, configured the same way, fixed is fine. Then you have nothing to lose or fall off, or fumble locating. Most soldiers fall into this category, only changing loads as they are assigned to crew-served weapons.

If you require flexibility due to changing equipment, mission, or organization, then modular is better. Note the changing over to the MOLLE system here in the US, Early versions left much to be desired, but the current generation is pretty good.

There is always going to be some anal CO or SNCO who wants everyone to put their gear together the same way so that they look good on parades. For them, a starched potato sack or Boy Scout ruck is probably best.

TR

Alright, so stay away from the SOF ruck, Roger.

Reaper,
I had read your rucking post which was very indepth, and enlightening. I have heard from a few Rangers that also rucking with that same weight range for training anywhere from 45-60lbs max is what a hopeful candidate will want to do to alleviate, and avoid possible injury. What I was a little curious about is, I know alot of you Special Forces operators are rucking anywhere from 100-120lbs downrange. I do rem you saying boss that you should ruck with 45-55lbs as a max, but how do you condition yourself to humping a sometimes 50% inscrease in weight?? One thing I found interesting is the amount of weight for a static line parachute jump, or even a HALO jump where you can be carrying about 185-210 lbs :eek:

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar

There are times in your life you'll be required to perform an exceedingly difficult task to the best of your ability, regardless of your perceived capability. Mental toughness is what will carry the day during these times. In other words, you suck it up and do what you have to do.

As a slight aside, the NZ Army is issuing new webbing now that is completely MOLLE, as well as new packs soon with I've heard are MOLLE but I can't confirm that right now.

How do you practice for being shot without being shot?

You should have read the number of times here where I have told civilian wannabes to focus on the 25 meter target.

Odds are less than 1 in 4 that you will have to worry about it. Just follow the instructions and as Razor said, BPT embrace the suck.

TR

Reaper, and Razor

Understood.

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar

Speaking from my short time under my ruck, I have to say that my MALICE II from tactical tailor with Eagle straps and kidney pad/belt is as comfortable as I could imagine a ruck being. Minimal raw skin on my lower back/sides and I run my Camel-Bak out of the top pouch and into the chest strap to hold it in place for easy access.

Tyler, Tyler, Tyler...

I wondered how long it would take you to find this board. :cool:

Training no matter what you’re doing should build you up to face the challenge you expect to encounter. A buddy/mentor of mine always poses the question whenever we conduct training that may appear to be a little “out there’. His question is “Might you have to ______ in combat?” He has filled in the blank with “shoot from a car while driving”, “climb a rope while fully kitted”, “carry another man while closing on a target”, “fight through a house full of smoke”, “climb thru a third-story window as a split-ops team”, “fight hand-to-hand after being pepper spayed”, “fire from your weak side”, “buddy-carry 230lb team-mate and his 100lb rucksack”, “shoot thru a pane glass window”, “pull a wounded team-mate from a HMMV turret”.

Sure you can work on rucking a little smarter, such as comfy boots and rucksacks but the time quickly arrives when ya need to pull on the old jungle boots and strap on the ALICE to get used to the “burn” of an overloaded ALICE. I’m one of the “hurts so good” jungle boots and ALICE pack guys myself.

Once in the Pipeline you’ll quickly realize “how you measure up” regarding all aspects of manhood… rucking, running, flutter-kicks, drinking tolerance, small unit tactics, womanizing prowess, shooting ability, brain-power, humor, map reading, swimming, pull-ups, airborne ops, apparel, care of kit, finances, and of course common sense. These are just a few of the indicators we use in our constant evaluation of others and self. You can be a “stud at rucking”, but a “tird at flutter kicks”, or “suck at land-nav”, but “awesome at mortars”. So work on your rucking and don’t be “that guy” but be that “go-to guy”.

Longtab, I'm not quite a young Joe anymore and that post made me think, I wish I had more guys mentor me like that when I was a younger stud.

Thanks for the time that you took to put that down. I'm gonna be using that line alot!

Which one Brah? His post was full of them!


Longtab, one of the best posts I've seen on the internet.

"Might you have to _______ in combat"?

I liked the guy thing too. Wait...

Blackhawk anyone?
 

I recently purchased a Blackhawk RAPTOR for hiking, but was dissapointed in that the side pouches were specifically for radio and flares, kem-lights etc. Overall the ruck has lasted over 200 miles of hiking, and far more comfortable than the ALICE ruck. Just looking for some other experience with the Blackhawk products.


Ropadope (Static line ABN)

Ropeadope, you have already been advised to familiarize yourself with the search button.

Look for "Blackhawk", there should be plenty of experience for you to peruse.

If you are trying to set a record for post count on your first day, it is about to end badly for you.

TR

Fire for effect!
 

Ropeadope,

7 posts today and 2 yesterday! I personally would get my head down ASAP, because TS is shortly going to be firing for effect.

My .02 mate.:confused:

Old School
 

I agree with Warrior Mentor, and many other on this Tread.

I would tell new Studs going through the SFQC. If your going to spend some money.. go down to General Jackson, buy a Alice and get it modified by Willie.

One thing I would say to buy is the Extreme Top Lid (XTL) by Kifaru in lieu of the modified ruck top flap that most places do. You have to added some new tabs on your Ruck, but this thing is the heat for top room.

http://www.kifaru.net/MG_XTL.htm

For the missions we are asked to perform these days, you need to be light and self contained and NO EXPENSE SHOULD BE SPARED to see that objective met. Having two packs, your team day pack plus your Mod Alice is the way to go.

I bought an Alice back in 1992, fixed it at a show repair at NTC in 1994, then a repair during the SFQC by Willie. I added a new side pocket in 2003. Cost me about 200.00 back in 1992. Do the math, money well spent.

The SPARES Ruck, Sucks.. 11-13 Lbs empty.. WTF was the Army or G8 think when they BOIP that system. Civilian that hasn’t been under the weight, just behind a desk for 10 years. BS

MtnGoat wrote:

I would tell new Studs going through the SFQC. If your going to spend some money.. go down to General Jackson, buy a Alice and get it modified by Willie.


Amen to that! I had my ALICE modified by Willie years ago and it was the best money I ever spent. I had the following done: :)

1. All straps converted to quick release (BSR-1A clips)

2. Claymore pouch added over the 3 small snap pockets top rear of pack.

3. Compression bag added on the botton for sleeping gear/poncho ect.

5. Left side pcket running entire length of bag, 3" x 19" 6", zipper top. Fits Pocket Hotel and hydration bladder.

6. Right side pocket 3" x 11" x 6", zipper top.

7. 2 qt canteen straps on right side under new pocket.

With the proper stuff sacks (colored coded) I can find anything relatively quick inside. I still use my Early Winters (remeber them?) stuff sacks fro my BT days.

The reason I settled on ALICE was the fact that I can carry a butt pack on my pistol belt and M-1956 LBE suspenders (rigged with 550 cord, cut the metal buckles off) comfortably. The butt pack gives you a small day pack and it's easy to rig a 60oz or 100oz hydration pack on the back of the suspenders as well. I always felt that you need an e&e kit in you butpack so if you coudn't get back to your main ruck you can survive.

I used a modified ALICE for many years, I carried it on a modified jungle ruck frame. Good gear if the only thing you can use has to be issue. Or at least, have originally been issued.

Civilian rucks generally do not have the external pockets needed for military use. You have to be able to get to food, ammo, batteries, rain gear, Claymores, IVs, antennas, etc. quickly at all times. Your average backpacker does not have that need.

Just got a set of the long side pockets for my Kifaru Navigator.

Great accessory, makes for easy access to frequently needed items like rain gear, food, etc.

The Kifaru packs are bulletproof, superbly designed and constructed, carry almost like they are part of you.

No, you may not use them at SFAS or in the SFQC.

TR

MtnGoat,

Thanks for the tip on the XTL. I ordered one. :) What's the best way to mod an ALICE to use it? Do you keep the existing flap or is it removed/moded? Where did you add clips?

That does look sharp! I'd be interested in how to use that with a large ALICE, too.

Hey guys, for those of you wondering about how to use one of our XTL's on your ALICE packs, here's a link to a thread on our message board with some pics I took of an XTL on an ALICE. I also explain how I did it. Hope this might help you guys that were interested in this setup.

http://forums.kifaru.net/ubb/ultimat...=001594#000000

Mel

Nice looking set-up, Mel.

Thanks for the picture show!

TR

Local
 

[QUOTE]go down to General Jackson[QUOTE]

Buy on line unless you want throw money away. Lots of sewing shops cheaper also. Or drive over to a Gear maker. There are plenty in Fay. Search on here. Or ask around. Some of the best in Fay work out of their Garage. Need it fast go with a big on line Company? Has the Army officially change from the old Alice from as late as 2001?

Thanks Mel!

+1 on the photos. My XTL in ACU should be here in about 4 weeks. I can't wait to get it.

Really nice setup and thanks for the instructions on how to do this mod.

Well, here goes.
 

I prefer the ALICE pack.

So whose 130 lb ruck were you wearing? I know it wasnt yours young figurado.

130 lbs... lol.

Best of luck on TC3...

Crip

Wow, advice from a man of vast experience.

How many years you got under that ruck?

TR