I guess I will need to pause and ask my attacker how far he wants to escalate, before I attempt to polish the back of his eye socket with my thumb and give him an O'Neil to the nuts. I don't bite unless I've skipped lunch. Hell, if I accidentally kill him... he may try and kill me too.

Where is that crazy spiked-haired infomercial lesbian chick that yells "stop the insanity" when you need her?

Arwr

The ability to strike hard at an opponent with the simultaneous willingness to absorb some damage is usually more than enough to take out most people you will end up fighting, thus just about any martial art CAN be effective. The question is not 'Does your self-defense work,' but 'Are you able to make it work?' Or, as I heard it put so eloquently, "The martial art works just fine, you just have to have the guts and sense do it right."

The main issue, in my experience, is that effective use of any martial art requires some modicum of aggression/combative intent. To put it bluntly- the reason black belts get their butts handed to them by some random punk is because the martial artist has all the moves and none of the intent. Most people, in this day and age, who go to martial arts go precisely BECAUSE they are not comfortable with generating or acting upon combative intent- they are not comfortable getting in there and FIGHTING. They begin training in martial arts under the assumption that they are a collection of "tricks" that will allow them to protect themselves without having to generate or familiarize themselves with the rush and fear or combat.

This being said, there is a distinct difference between combat and "social combat." Many martial arts/self-defense arts are designed for only one or the other. If you try to use either in an inappropriate situation, or with inappropriate intent (ie- trying to use very lethal combat without the intent to actually kill your opponent) you will most likely have limited results. Most fighting in the civilian world is social combat- its purpose is not to kill or maim your opponent but to assert social dominance. This is why you see fights that go on for 5 minutes, countless punches thrown, and both people are able to get up and walk away. This is why untrained people, or trained people who lose their cool (perhaps after getting surprised or taking some damage) tend to instinctively resort of wide, open hand strikes to the top sides of the head and the upper ribs- the weakest strike directed at the most armored part of the opponent's body. We are not really engineered for natural killing of other humans, but rather to use social combat to assert dominance. This is why people tend to have to be trained to kill, animals do not.

To read a much more in depth scientific explanation of the differences and reasons for these things, there is an article on the hoplology (the study of human combative behavior) website. Be forewarned, it gets pretty involved.

Thus, the ultimate question is not whether or not your self-defense works, but what are doing to condition your body, mind and heart to use it effectively.

Tyler

Does my self-defence work?

Well enough to avoid any physical confrontations that did not involve U.S. Govt. sponsorship. Avoidance, first. Deescalation, second. Surviving with the least amount damage done to you and your own, last.

Assessing the threat:
1. Ability
2. Opportunity
3. Manifest intent
3. Preclusion

Once physical contact is made, its combat. Absolute destruction of the threat is required. The way the autonomic nervous systems works, you can not tell a knife stabbing from a punch. Many people have bled to death not knowing this. Destroy the threat, the time for assessment is over.

Arwr

Of course. I am going on 68 and still here. I started with PF fliers. I could leap fences in a single bound on the way home from school. I graduated to0Chuck Taylor All Stars in the army. Noe my defense is to look so old and defensless that no one wants to screw with me. It works for ,e!:lifter

Not sure...
 

Not sure if it will work or not. I'm still waiting for somebody to jump me, grab me, try and take me down or surround me.

Most I ever get is a look or two down on the Murk.

Pete

I am going to Lock Out if I remember the name correctly. It combines hand to hand with live Fire on the Range. Basically how to handle the first few seconds of an Armed confrontation while your still Holstered. Its part of Soulis Shooting Systems.
I know the course is good because I know the People who thought up the concept. Every one of them survived one or more close up Gun Fights . But would like to know if anyone else heard of it, Its not very new.

[QUOTE=Pete; I'm still waiting for somebody to jump me, grab me, try and take me down or surround me.



Pete[/QUOTE]

Me too but I haven't found her yet.:p

I've been studying and practicing Judo for 20 years, and Ninjutsu for 13years, respectively.

In the 30 years that I've been on this earth, I've used the techniques numerous times in competition, with success. So, I know it works in competition.

In the last 15 years of my life now, I've used my skill, maybe 5 times, "off the mat". The other guy didn't have his way with me, so from that standpoint I'd say it works...to a certain degree.

If you're a lock/hold/submission guy, or a throw and counter ground person, fighting in the street is always going to be difficult when you go up against someone who throws things...i.e.; fists, bricks, sign posts.

This revelation has made me look at learning to throw my soup mixers, with a little more behind them. BUT...then I remembered, when you get older, most people in Cali are more likely to throw HPs at you.

Best bet for my age and AO = don't start nothin won't be nothin.

If push comes to shove, I can still dance.:lifter

In my experience, the training and reality were quite different.

My primary training was in Chito-ryu, though I dabbled a little in some informal Muay Thai, Wing chun and some others.
Most of the time was spent with me and my instructor (or with whomever I could find to spar) beating the snot out of each other sans headgear.

After dealing with the effects of what were probably serial low-grade concussions, I would recommend the regular use of headgear.


For the better part of 3 1/2 years, I worked security in a violent nightclub in western Colorado.
There were more conflicts than I care to remember; here is what I learned concerning the training versus reality.


I'll start with the 2 most important things:
1. Numbers. Whoever has (effectively) the most people on their side usually wins.
2. Situational awareness. Attacking the other person when they're unaware (however momentary) works best. Be aware and you won't be an easy target.


All of our staff had different self-defense backgrounds, different body types, and different levels of fitness, but everyone eventually used the same basic technique:
-We would keep enough distance from a potential threat (or threats) to prevent a sucker-punch.
-Once action was warranted, we would close range as quickly as possible, secure some sort of upper-body control, and immediately throw or sweep.
-From there, we would address the next threat or achieve dominance over the downed threat through numbers.
(as a practical matter, kicking a downed threat is quite effective, in case you lack numerical advantage)
-We would avoid going to the ground ourselves unless we had a buddy specifically watching our back.
It would probably be best described as Greco-Roman wrestling with tripping allowed.

The various forms of training we had mainly contributed to not getting hurt while closing range.
I have to emphasize there is a difference between "not getting hurt" and "not getting hit".

Arguably the best training any of us had was athletic rather than martial, specifically football and basketball.
The reason for this can be summed up in one word: balance.
I'm not sure of the reason, but people demonstrate awful balance when under stress.


I'm sure any of us could have used the various forms of self-defense in which we had been formally trained, but it would have been time-consuming.
Fractions of a second matter in close-quarters.
When someone is taken off of their feet, they are (relatively and temporarily at least) fixed in space.
This allows movement of your friends to you, you to your friends, or you to/from other threats.
Such movement effectively gives you the ability to outnumber the idiots (our term for "enemy").


Something else that merits mention is an idea best described as "initiative".
All of us went through roughly the same developmental process.
For the first half-dozen to dozen chaotic brawls, everything seems to happen very fast.
It's exciting/frightening, everything is reflex (no concious decision-making), and you have trouble remembering details afterwards.
Somewhere towards the end of that first dozen, some dramatic changes happen:
-Everything seems to slow down.
-Emotions are generally absent.
-You gain the ability to make concious decisions.
-Afterwards, you can remember details.
(and afterwards the emotions show up--usually anger/frustration at first...after enough events it's sorrow/pity)

The advantage this "initiative" gave cannot be overstated.
However, no amount of previous training gave any of our staff a pass on this developmental process.
Experience was the only teacher.


A few other things I learned:

Techniques are overrated.
Athleticism is underrated.
SA is your best defense, your body will protect itself automatically from a known threat.
Morale is very important. When there's no referee and you can't tap-out, people are often indecisive.

Keep your feet:
-Once on the ground, you lose mobility and SA.
-While down, your head starts to bear a strong resemblance to a soccerball.
-The real world is often not one-on-one. Keep your options open.

Keep your cool:
-"Raging" will intimidate the lesser threats. It will not intimidate a real threat.
-"Raging" will cause tunnel-vision. The threat you don't see is the one that will hurt you.

Keep your distance:
-If you are not actively engaging, make sure you have time to react.

Decisiveness:
-If delaying conflict will improve your situation, delay.
-If delaying conflict will degrade your situation, act immediately.

Force escalation:
-If you are going to engage in violence, be as violent as possible.
-Do not gradually escalate your offensive actions. It is an either/or proposition.
-De-escalate as necessary after you have achieved dominance.

Real world conflicts rarely happen in padded environments.
-Immobile objects (like the ground, doorframes, parked cars) make excellent improvised weapons.
-It's better to break your opponent on an object than break yourself on your opponent.


FWIW, there it is.
I hope it helps somebody.

<edit>

How do I know my self defense will work?
Everything I've experienced leads to one conclusion:
I don't know.

I do know that I will act.
Hopefully those actions will be sufficient.

I try not to get dirty these days.:D

Don't mess with an old man. If he's too old to fight he'll just kill you.:lifter

I practice Brazilian jiu jitsu and I know it works because it has saved my ass in a real fight. Really in my opinion the main difference between the gym and the street is rough, hard surfaces and a guy trying to bash your face in. As long as the person trying to use jiu jitsu isn't a pussy he should be able to take a few hits so he can break a limb/choke the guy out. I have decent striking but I find that from high school wrestling and jiu jitsu I don't need great striking because both forms instinctively make me get a dominant position. I've turned a couple of fights around simply by using something as elementary as the guard position and sweeping the guy when he started to pound my head in and get over confident. I don't think that BJJ is the most effective style though, in my opinion wrestling is the most effective because everything in wrestling is about position and that is usually what wins the fight. If there's one thing I regret it's starting wrestling as a junior and not wrestling my entire time in high school. As far as self defense jiu jitsu is pretty effective in my experience. Regardless of styles being effective I agree with what tf999 was saying because you still need to have a set of balls to kick someones ass.

I use Aikido eye combat. When I first started I practised on goats, but it is so dangerous, I only use it for personal protection. It is done by projecting ki from the eyes. The nice thing about it is you never even need to touch anybody. I would really like to learn a healing aspect to it. It would really help with the guilt I am burdened with for accidentally causing a homeless man to develop a drinking problem. This stuff is wicked powerful.

Arwr

Spoken like a true professional...trains hard, proven in the ring and yet humbly adds "not trying to start a pissing contest".

As for other threads such as the Tai Chi, Jui Jitsu, etc. My personal and humble opinion is that mixture is always good. I found it odd that the quesion of why an operator would choose to practice Tai Chi.....for one it is a truly relaxing art but an operator does not limit himself to one art, discipline or ideal. An operator opens his mind and learns everything he can to make himself a better operator at every level...not just fighting skills either.

Limit your brain and you limit your reach.

I wrestled my entire life, and boxed when I was younger.... I always thought that combo served me well. Now I do MMA (not as a pro, just training), which I find to be a comfortable match for me.

I will say this though, in a street fight, I would be hesitant to go to the ground with anyone unless I had to. Not because I am uncomfortable with my ground skills, rather because very few fights in this day and age are truly "one on one." They may start out that way, but most of the fights that I respond to involve the losing party's buddies jumping in once they saw him start to lose. Knowing the probability that my opponents "buds" are going to take a cheap shot at me if I start to win, or are going to jump in 2 or 3 at a time, I prefer to stay on my feet if I can.

Great thread. Glad to see so many opinions in one place. I, personally, in 28 years in the world of MA and combatives have only had two situations where physical force was warranted. They are both regrettable. The older I get the less I want to test my skills for real. I would rather attempt to pass on some of the wisdom I have gleaned in nearly forty years on this wonderful blue marble. That's why I teach now. And a great deal more goes into my classes than just the fighting part.

Don't get me wrong, I'm completely understanding and wired for VOA. Simply put, destroy your adversary. Sort out the rest after the dust settles, so to speak. Nearly any fighting system will do, as long as the right, violent mindset goes with it. Guess the medic in me keeps me balanced these days however...that and the right woman at home. :cool:

Looking forward to more from here. Thanks, guys. :D

I train in MMA, and it has paid off a few times...

I'm 6'3, 235lbs. and I have to watch my temper most of the time. But watching it goes right out the door when someone messes with the wife or a loved one...

Soon after moving to Omaha, NE., the wife and I were at a gas station. The wife wanted to run in and get something quickly before we headed out houses hunting. Well, there were three Mexicans getting out of their van and approaching the store entrance when my wife walked out. They made some remarks to her, and one attempted to make a grab at her...Well, needless to say, I was out of the car, and confronting him. We said about two words before he did the, "I'm gong to act like I'm going to puch you to see if you will flinch..."thing. No flinching here. As soon as he made the quick gesture of striking, I went full force, fist to his chin, putting him on the ground and into some type of convulsions...I then got ready to be jumped by his buddies, but they were to busy watching their friend spasm on the ground.

So yeah, MMA(Kickboxing, grappling, jui jitsu) has paid off.

Kickboxing got me suspended but it worked
 

I was being harrased by some jerk at my school for a couple of weeks. Needless to say, I stood up for myself and he threatened me but left me alone. Later that day I was in the restroom and I walk into him and his buddies. He said "Look at this bitch" started walking towards me with his fist clenched, I knew he was going to hit me so as he approached I did a spinning back kick to his stomach, I went A little high and fractured his rib. After that I ran out of the bathroom in fear his buds were going to beat me up and just my luck a dean watched me as I sprinted out and asked me what was going on. He investigated that bathroom and saw the guy laying on the floor cursing and pissed. After he went to the hospital the dean called my parents let them know what happened, But they were furious I was getting in trouble for defending myself but since it's a zero tolerance policy, I got 3 days of Out of school suspension, which was vacation for me since my parents knew I was getting bullied by this jerk and 3 days of In school suspension which was calming because I ended up finishing the book "Masters of Chaos."

I eventually moved to a new school because of my parents selling the house and I love where i'm at in North Carolina.

lolol Made my week, Chuck! :D:D:D

I started studying Isshin Ryu karate shortly after I graduated the police academy in 1976. My sensei, a seichi dan, was the defensive tactics instructor there ... and remains my sensei to this day.

I've survived several notable brawls during my career: 4 to 1 and 16 to 2, which I was the winner (they went to hospital and then to jail) and a large number of mano a mano encounters (it was a 32 year career). All my fights were extremely short, lasting well under a minute. As I told my officer's in training, "you don't get paid to lose -- there is no referee." Consequently, I've broken bones and drawn some blood. Most of the time I owed my success to situational awareness ... I knew what was coming and used any and every tool whether it be open hand, snap kick, pr-24 (tongfa), or asp baton to win. But not every one ... in the 16 to 2 fight I would have had my ass kicked if a town marshal (a former marine) had not covered my six so I could take care of business.

And sometimes the other guy just got lucky. I was blindsided by an inmate (he was awaiting trial for attempt murder of a city police officer) in a cell block who hit me from the side with a metal fragment he broke off a pail. Fractured my left lower orbit and knocked me to the ground. What he didn't expect was that I would get up with my face half hanging and crowd him down into a corner so I could kick him to death. Unfortunately for me, other officers arrived and surrounded us both so I couldn't finish the job since he was "bought and paid for."

My rule is always win. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line so I'm not normally going to kick above the belt and I'll usually go for the knee caps first. It makes my opponent much shorter and easier to finish off.

If that's cruel and unusual, too bad ....

Post deleted. May be found to be offensive to some on this forum.

So Dusty... ya think the nose drinking has anything to do with that Festus voice of yours?

:D

I'm happy I did! Some people can be real jerks, I am a 6'1 185 lb goofy looking korean kid with the last name of Garcia in the south, so you can imagine I get rude remarks all the time! Especially when people see my nametape and It does not match the eye shape!:mad:

Sounds like you've got one of the best of all possible worlds ... the jerks will never understand. ... so ignore them and stand tall -- it'll piss them off even more and you'll demonstrate that you are in control.

Kelly McCann/Jim Grover
 

I second that! I want to get his DVD's covering shooting. I have a few links to full length videos of his Combatives volumes if you or anybody else wants them posted or PM'd.