The .357 mag, like any other round, depends on proper shot placement. On Nov. 20th, 1992, South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates shot an assailant with his issue .357 Mag. The guy lived. Trooper Coates was hit with one round, under his arm pit above his vest, by a .22. He died in just a few seconds. The in car video of this incident is used as training in Basic Law Enforcement classes nation wide. It is a gruesome video, but drives home a basic officer survival point.

Yup, placement is everything.

This was the video that got me switched-on as I was completing my academy training.

Re TR: Maybe I did miss your point. However, the drop ins barrels are being marketed as drop ins with no other mods needed.
There are a few online post and reviews from end users that are positive. All or most users recommend needing 9mm mags for best results. The one complaint that came up a few times, is the gun seems to shoot high.
Can't beat first hand knowledge ...... as promised, when I try it I will report back.

99

Well said. Best home defense as far as firepower goes.

Hard to discreetly carry one around your house and property though. I can imagine having the neighbors over for dinner, and having a 870 slung while you eat.

Cant beat the lethality of it though-

VIts your house, you should have 'things' strategically located throughout your home to be able to repel at least little 'contact'. You would be amazed what you can stash around your home without your neighbors noticing. Most of my neighbors are sheep who keep their heads down and keep to themselves.

About 4:00 last night a truck two houses down the street from us had a window smashed and the alarm went off and scared the burglar off. The truck belongs to a college kid who rents a basement apartment from one of our neighbors. The kid did not lose anything but now has to pay to have the window replaced.

My daughter came in from class about 8:30 last night and said two police cars were parked three blocks away from our house so the police are trying hard to catch the guy. I think it is just some local guy who has a drug problem because the stuff that is happening is really stupid.

So this morning I went back to the gun shop. It is really interesting how much different a pistol feels in your hand when you are in a really bad mood. It just seems to point better and hold steadier! This time the Glock 34 felt much better and pointed better, although it seems to be sensitive to how you first wrap your hand around it. But if I grip it hard, then it lines up fine. So I bought the Glock. In order to register it in DC, they swapped out the high capacity magazines for 10 round magazines (what a bummer).

G17 gen 4
 

IMHOO, in the absence of range test, this is one of the best method to test if the pistol matches the person.

I don't like glocks. Weird grip angle, bulge at the back of handle, double-feed/FTE with limp wrist etc. The pistol that points naturally for me and the one I started with is the USP compact series. However, when I acquired a G17 gen 4 recently no matter how I pick it up, two hands, strong hand, weak hand, it just points with perfect sight alignment. I presume that years of competition using G34 has conditioned my eye-hand-body to match Glocks design. I still don't like glocks, but it works. Hence, *shrugs*

FWIW, the smaller grip size, great grip texture, and double spring in G17 Gen 4 has allowed me faster and more accurate follow-up shots due to reduced muzzle lift and lower perceived recoil. As you plan to deliver more than just one round, I strongly recommend this one to test. If you look around, LE & vet/AD should be able to get it for $400 with three mags

I used to own a G23 originally in .40. For variety, I purchased the .357 Sig barrel and 9mm barrel to shoot those rounds as well.

For the 9mm, only a barrel and G19 magazines were needed. Some recommend the G19 extractor while many say it is not necessary.

Right or wrong, I put a few thousand 9mm rounds through the G23 using only the conversion barrel and magazines and the G23 extractor never failed to pull the brass. Just my experience, nothing more. I never advise to use the 9mm on the G23 slide for defensive use but it worked well for me as a plinking rig at the range.

I eventually sold the pistol for my current XD9 which I like much better. The Glocks, to me, are the AK-47 of the handgun world; Damn reliable and accurate enough. I just really like the fell of the XD much better.

I went and shot the Glock 34 yesterday. It brought back remembrances of the part of the debriefing sessions called “Lessons Learned”. :boohoo

1. This is not a good home defense weapon. A bucket of rocks would be better because you can only throw the glock once but with a bucket you can just keep on throwing rocks.

2. Building on #1 above the Glock is obviously a member to the local pistol union and as such the shop steward has determined it only has to feed and fire ammo costing more than fifty cents a round. It is under no obligation to feed cheap PMC ammo.

3. PMC ammo will not even cycle the action far enough to clear the case in the chamber a lot of times.

4. The meaning of the term “ limp wrist” shooters finally penetrated the depth of my cortex and became understandable.

5. The cure for limpwrist syndrome has certain characteristics similar to the 60mm knee fired mortar. You can only cure it once by putting your off side hand such that your thumb over laps on the top of your gun hand as you would a revolver.

6. Tumbling your cheap PMC brass with your 460S&W brass may save energy but it is dumb as all get out. The 9mm brass will go down into the bottom of the 460 brass and the vibrations will cause media to wedge between the case walls and stick the 9mm brass tight in the bottom. It requires looking in each case with a flashlight to be sure you don’t have the doubled up cases. Trying to get it out is an exercise for Jane Goodall and the chimps. The 460 is a roll crimp so stuff hangs at the mouth. Of course if you miss one that is all right, as soon as you break your decapping pin you will figure out that there is a case inside a case.

7. Paying $252 for 1000 pieces of new Lapua brass is starting to look intelligent being as the gun obviously likes to have some chamber pressure and Lapua brass (at least in a rifle) will tolerate a lot of chamber pressure.

8. I should have just stuck with the 469S&W. Its slow as trying to eat cold oatmeal, but you only got to hit a person once with it. The muzzle blast alone would fry the hair off his head. :D


Other than all of that, if you feed it moderately priced ammo it will put every round in a four inch circle at 25 yards just time and time again. In all seriousness its probably a very good pistol and I would never have bought cheap ammo except I wanted it for the brass to reload. It did fine with ammo that would actually cause the slide to go all the way to the rear stop.

I love a check list that comes together,, After the fact.. :eek::D:eek:

I suspect that after a couple hundred rounds you may be able to fire even Wolf steel-case.. I have a G 23 that loves anything as long as it's FMJ.

I'm a little surprised that the PMC wouldn't cycle but it is Korean. It seems that Glocks take about 200 rounds to break in. I've shot new Glocks with the Winchester white box bulk ammo with no problems. In my G34 - I loaded crap brass with Winchester 231 4.5 ~ 4.6grains, CCI or Winchester SP primers, and 115gr FMJs. That was plenty even in a new pistol.

My 8yr daughter shoots mine and can manage not to limp-wrist... That's all I have to say about that.:cool:

As far as the brass tumbling... If you want to mix brass, get the Lyman brass baggie It keeps the brass separate.

Give her a chance - you'll like her.

I have a Glock 17 that I bought, installed a target trigger, lubed, and took directly to a tactical class.

I put more than 5,000 rounds of Remington yellow box ammo through it with zero malfunctions.

TR

Where and with what do you lube it?


My daughter beats me so regularly at F-class that I just wear a hat that says "Coach".

"Coach"...:D:D:D

I have to remember that.

I use Gun Butter. I put a little bit on the contact points on the slide.

I lube it like a 1911, mostly on the rails/rail guides, a little on the barrel-slide contact areas, anywhere there is metal on metal contact.

I like Mil-Tech or TW-25B grease for my guns.

TR

Mil-Tech, when you heat the parts up, they can be wiped DRY and they are still SLICK!!!

As I've posted previously, apply Mil-Tech and heat up the parts with a Hair-Dryer until they are almost too hot to handle. Let them cool and wipe them DRY!!!

The lubricity that remains is UNBELIEVEABLE!! The stuff molecularly bonds with the surfaces.

IT WORKS!!!!

Later
Martin

the most important place to put lube on a Glock is on the connector, where the trigger bar contacts

if you don't put lube anywhere else, put it there

Bob,

Pretty much as TR said, rails with MILTEC ; NSN 9150-01-415-9112. Also a great lube for inkjet printers. There are Teflon products that work well too.

If you'd like I can hook you up with my brother at the FBI Firearms Training Unit at Quantico...pm me!

RF 1

Woah
 

Too many lubes being thrown out at one time.

Mil-tech, TW-25B, or Gun Butter.

Anybody able to compare?

My department switched from S&W 686s to Glocks about 1989. I was an instructor and I never liked the looks or feel of the 17. I was also issued a 14 and eventually a 26 for plain clothes wear. Then we switched to 21s and I was happy until I retired.
Felt good, shot good, fed reliably and used the proper 45acp round.

Militec-1 is an oil that enters the pores of the metal if properly heated and leaves a lubricating residue or film behind.

TW-25B is a grease. I like grease for the rails and reciprocating parts as it usually sticks better than oil.

I have no experience with Gun Butter.

My experience has been to coat all of the metal surfaces with Militec and heat it up for the bonding. Then I use the TW-25B to lube all of the engagement surfaces.

This technique actually left the Glock slide a bit slippery to manipulate, even after the excess was wiped off. To this day it feels almost like an NP-3 gun to my touch.

HTH.

TR

Two thoughts.

A good friend of mine, Todd Green, has made a business out of sponsored endurance tests. He put over 60,000 rounds through an M&P and over 90,000 rounds through a P30 before failure. Teachers and Students of the Pistol

Any mechanical device is subject to unexpected failure. Whatever you choose, have a plan B for when it does.

Plan B.

I did as I was told and went to the gunshop and they had no gun butter but they had the Militec and the TW 25B so that is what I bought. I also got some better ammo also. I field stripped it and there was hardened grease in the slide rails and after some work with carb cleaner and Gun Scrubber, I got the grease softened up enough to get most of it out. Then I coated it with the Militec and used a heat gun on it. Then I lubed the rails and called it good.

The empty PMC brass was loaded back up with max (not +P) loads of HS6 and Power Pistol and Hornady 90 and 115 gr XTP.

Took the pistol back to the range and it was just a different gun all together. There was almost no recoil and very little right twist any more. Everything feed perfectly without a single stoppage. The funny thing is that the 124 Golden Saber +P had less muzzle movement than the PMC ammo had the first time around.

The whole issues seems to have been the hardened factory grease and once that was gone it was really smooth and pleasant.

G L O C K ... (imho), your best choice for reliability and function. In Bagdad, I carried a G19 in a Fobus rig, and I'm sure there are many of you out there that chose the same sidearm / holster combo... you can't beat perfection.

I wasn't sure where this is. For those in the same boat:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/06...s/DSC07117.jpg

Come to think of it, that part came from the factory with significant amount of copper lubricant just like on the rails. One of these days, I'll take the armorer course.

*

the Armorer's course

6 hours of how great Gaston Glock is and 2 hours of actually working on guns :D

that's partly a joke, but there's a little truth there too

the Armorer's course is pretty interesting

What vintage is your Gerber?

The Gerber was purchased in 1969 most likely at Ranger Joe's at Ft Benning. It went with me to RVN and never ever saw the top a a C-ration. I carried a M-16 bayonet as a work knife and it was one of the most worthless pieces of steel ever invented. Now the old M-1 bayonet which was about four feet long and could reach out there and gouge somebody at a respectable distance was a fine piece of hardware except for the rifle it was attached to was a little on the heavy side and slow on the cyclic rate. :D

The most important aspect of lubrication is having it in the first place.

I've been using 20w motor oil for a year or better now, and it's doing everything I want it to.

Hackathorn told us how he has been using 5w synthetic for years now, too.

I've used pretty much everything other than TW25B, but I still haven't found a reason to stop using synthetic motor oil, yet.

Temp for Militec
 

Reaper,
How long and at what temp do you heat the parts for lubrication with the Militec-1?
Boomer

The instructions are on the bottle. It says to heat to "operating temperature" by either firing or a heat gun and then wipe dry. I assumed operating temperature was somewhere less than glowing redhot. ;) So I heated it to mild warm with a heat gun and wiped it dry enough that it wouldn't attract dust.

I use the same Mobile ! synthetic oil that I use in my vehicles on my weapons, and TW25-B on the parts where grease is better than oil. Never had a problem.

temp
 

Thank you for that clarification Buffalobob.

(Note to the readers—This post is tied to this thread
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ead.php?t=7477
but I did not want to put it on that thread for fear someone would know even less than me and believe I was showing how to do things correctly) :D

I have decided to try my hand at shooting pistol competition of one form or another. So I looked up on the internet (which we know is populated extensively with intelligent people) some recommended loads that would make the power factor for a 9mm. It seemed like most everyone was using Titegroup and the cheapest bullets they could find in 124 grains and stuffing it in the cheapest assortment of brass they could scavenge. I loaded up some mixed brass with Titegroup and Speer 124 plinkers. Once the snow was supposedly gone from the back roads I headed to the range. I carried along some max load 115 Gold Cup HPs and some max load Lapua 123 RNs which I know have reasonable accuracy.

Having read some portions of the Army pistol marksmanship manual and looked at the picture of TS’s recommended grip, I decided to video my shooting style to see if it would provide me any insights to errors. One of the important things to know is that TS doesn’t shoot a glock!!! Right where he puts his weak side thumb is the Glock take down detent button. The first shot one notices that the detent button has sharp edges and the second shot one notices that they actually hurt and that shooting still again does not make it any less painful. Unfortunately, the Glock is recessed right there and the thumb really likes to slide up into that recess. I found that to be highly humorous. In the first video one will notice that on shot #7, I anticipate the shot and flinch. You will also notice I keep changing the weak side grip as I never get it the way that feels secure, and I am practicing for scuba diving as I never take a breath.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../6/c1ErxdrhuWs

After a few videos of me, I move the camera to the target and began shooting different loads. Up first is the supposedly great IDPA load with the 124 Speer RN and Titegroup. Distance is exactly 20 yards and the tape is 1.5 inch painters tape. The bottom group was the same load. Both are shot freehand.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../4/cupNECVSdBo

I am not happy with the groups from the 124 so I decide to shoot some 115s which I know produce decent accuracy and are what I keep in the mags when the pistol is at home.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../3/xhdTDvWx-Jk

I decide to try the 115s with my hands rested on the bench to see what the difference in groups size is from unsupported

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../2/v3vQuA7OlcI


The load I keep in the gun for black bears when elk hunting is 123 gr lapuas at +P. So I decide to try it unsupported. It shoots so well that I believe it is just luck and shoot a second mag to see if it is repeatable. Morale of the story is you don’t want to be a bear and try to steal my elk. One bullet gets away from me when I do not relax the trigger very far and have started the squeeze before the sight picture is fully restored or vice versa.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../1/Lu2tPyHNuLQ

Being as I am now having a good time and the gun is hitting what I am shooting at; I try the 123 Lapuas with my hands rested on the bench. Watch the left to right three shot pattern repeat itself. I wonder if I am resetting my grip every three rounds or just decide to come up for air.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcys.../0/ws_Y5afvgo4


So after spending a lot of time researching good IDPA loads I find that I already had a good load. Unfortunately the Lapua bullets are expensive IIRC.

I like your plan B. That MK-II is just awesome.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

If a decision has not been made on the type of handgun to buy, I have personally had a very favorable experience with the HK P30. They just won't die.

The example in your link did.