Okay, what are the best dry fire drills? Also, are there any visualization exercises that you'd recommend?

Thank you.

NDD also try here, about halfway down the page. They are in PDF format.

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html

I am just a novice and tried to use the wheel, it did not work real well. I finailly found someone who was very good and had them watch me. With in 20 rounds my groupings got a whole lot tighter.

It was developed to aid in teaching "target style" shooting - e.g. blade stance, one hand, unsupported. It is still a valuable tool in that environment. Unfortunately it can't take into account/doesn't accurately reflect the influences of the modern two-handed aggressive combat stances. That and "progressive" teaching methods don't start out shooting bullseyes at 25 yds on a flat range. Modern methods are designed to quickly produce competent combat shooters capable of accurately/effectively engaging threats within the most probable ranges - depending on source of information usually listed as 7-15 feet out to 7-15 meters. It's effective (translate to read - it's quicker and cheaper than the traditional methods). (The merits of which are a debate better held over a pitcher of whatever you're paying for.) FWIW - Peregrino

Way outside my lane here but had to comment on this: Dead right. Learn the proper technique; as slow as necessary but learn it correctly. The speed will come later. That's muscle memory for you. This works for anything.

Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

As in racing, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. Get the mechanics and the moves down perfectly first.

Speed is fine, accuracy is final.

When in doubt, listen to your Team Sergeant.

TR

OK, it was never a valid tool.

Most shooters do not possess the strength to shoot for hours; this is a huge factor when training individuals, to know when they have had enough. This is also an enormous factor when they start to miss and wonder why. 99.9% of the “instructors” I've watched have NEVER told anyone "you’re tired" and that's why you are throwing shots everywhere.
(Next time you teach or watch a group of twelve or so individuals shooting watch closely for 30 minutes. At about the 30 minute mark many will start to throw rounds everywhere.
(This does not apply if the students are “barrel chested freedom fighters”, competition shooters, or some SWAT teams. These individuals usually have the requisite upper body strength required to shoot for hours without a serious degradation of marksmanship.)

When I teach one of the first things I do to "students" is ask them to shake my hand and attempt to "crush" my hand. It’s not a test of "manlihood", I use it as a "gage" to check upper body strength and grip. It also tells me how long they will be able to shoot before fatigue starts to set in.

Something else I ask students, "who here is ready to run a marathon right now?"
Normally no one answers "I can". I then ask why? The answers usually are all the same, preparing for a marathon takes months of conditioning, hours of running per day, time to strengthen the legs, lungs, harden the mind etc. Then I tell them "so does shooting a pistol straight after 20 minutes."

Most individuals arms start to "fatigue" and "fail" after 20-30 minutes and there’s no way in hell they are going to have any semblance of accuracy left after this time. This is where the instructors I've watched make their biggest mistakes, trying to "fix" an individuals problem when, at that moment, it cannot be fixed. This is where I would make an educated guess that many instructors use the "wheel" to try to explain the individuals’ problem, when in fact all they need is rest.

I also ask how many times do they think Tiger Woods has "swung" his driver in order to become number one in the world? Want to be a great shooter, all one needs to do is put in the time. Learn how to do it right the first time and then its all about practice, conditioning etc.

There is more than one individual on this board that can place a pistol bullet through the same hole, not a shot group, the same hole at 5-7 meters. They know what it takes and they also know it takes practice, a lot of dry firing, and more practice to accomplish this feat all day long, every time.

Team Sergeant

LOL - you guys are killing me with all this "Old way doesn't work anymore". We can agree to disagree.

The wheel is not for the shooter, the wheel is a memory aid for the coach. The shooter should never be allowed to see it.;) It is also not all inclusive - for example: A right-handed shooter in a combat stance will shoot low left when he closes his off eye. But not every time. And not much. And only if he has his off foot forward.

TS and TR are right of course. The biggest mistakes most people make are going too fast and/or learning the skill poorly. Imperfect practice is worse than useless.

You posted while I was writing. I agree 100% about the being tired. I also agree most don't see it or recognize it as a factor. Excellent post.

Right, that's it! 5-7 meters tightest 5 shot group, I'll use your weapon and only five rounds....... Be forewarned I had an SF Medic that bet me I could not beat his "best", he's still cutting my lawn.:D

It's also no longer taught in FM 3-23-35. A fairly good FM IMO. (All those that cannot hit the water if they fell off the boat need to read this manual.;))

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-35/index.html

PB, Great link.

OK lets discuss the Wheel, where would anyone like to start?

I said "Almost ready" Team Sergeant.;)

Yes, the FM is a good one, I refer to it frequently.

kgoerz and I are not only training students, we are developing Instructors. We had 28 students and 21 Instructors in the last class. At the same time. It was "intresting". We are always looking for graphic representations that will help them.

I rarely shoot tightest group, I probably should do it more. Most of our training focuses on a red circle (we use a Copenhagen can for a template) pasted where a tango's heart would be if they had one. From the holster with an M4 hanging in front. Oh, and eyes. I like eyes. Nice and squishy. If one of ours ever puts 5 in one hole, I'll slap him on his helmet, hang a shotgun and ram off of him and make him go faster.:lifter :D

Nice touch!

so what you are telling me is that somebody finds a crutch for a left handed guy online and now it's outdated...:D

actually, your point makes sense...as far as the quoted point, you show up in town and i'll buy a pitcher of whatever you're drinking...;)

Ahhhh - no not really. I'm actually closer to NDDs opinion than I am to TS's. What we have here is a bunch of Type "A" (blind) personalities "describing the elephant". Everybody is right as far as they go but there is more to the picture than the effort of typing on the internet is worth. There are enough legitimate, high quality training tips already on this board to create an uber gunfighter if the aspirant can put it all together. (That's easier said than done.) The experts who have posted all have their strengths and their personal preferences. That's why I made the "pitcher" comment. I always learn something valuable in a bull session - and it's not always what I expected or even something I'm comfortable about.

FWIW - I'm left handed and I've been using the "wheel" (both versions) as a personal and coaching tool for 25+ years. Peregrino

this is the first i've seen of the wheel...i am interested in these techniques, although i need to find the time to try them...

many good points have been made here...i really don't see much i disagree with (having never tried the wheel before)...

i wholeheartedly agree that informal sessions among capable people can result in cross-fertilization and experimentation...i've also learned quite a bit at these sessions...

of course, one nice thing about the range at Bad Toelz is you could zero in the morning, fire a few tables for practice, have a pitcher with lunch at the Rod and Gun and not do too well at record fire in the afternoon...or at least i heard that...:D

I like the lack of heart comment. :D

Good thread gents. I can use this for my classes, after the next deployment of course. ;)

I have the greatest respect for those of you that share knowledge of shooting skills and we all learn from your experience.
Points I learned from TS: (based on your level of 'expertise') and I use this in the operating room....its an analogy to the QPs and their honed shooting skills: slower is faster, efficiency breeds speed, speed alone leads to mistakes (and misses).
The most skilled surgeon that are 'fast' with the moves in the O.R. are not fast, just efficient, no wasted moves and this appears as speed when compared to the novice that performs 15 moves for my 3....NDD unconsciously has 7 of his 8 fundamentals hardwired, he may need to 'think' about only 1.
I'm sure you guys know the compentency stages of tasks:
- unconsciously incompetent
- consciously incompetent
- consciously competent
- unconsciously competent....this is where TS, NDD and others are speaking from.
Once you attain the zen (thank you TR), you have attained the level of unconsciously competent....it is without obvious thought that the task is completed correctly......forget 10,000 TS, more like > 100,000 ??

RL, I wrote down the TS's dry fire routine he gave me....I have to find it at home and I'll pass it along...it works.

ss

Excellent post Syd.

I was reviewing the competency stages last night.

I once saw, and can't remember what it was called "somebody's Law" or something similar about the number of experiences and how they relate to learning. kind of hard to explain.

Cincy - I saw a thread mentioning it once on TPI - do you know what i'm talking about?

You sure you weren't in 10th Group? Or the SEALs? :eek:

Thanks, I didn't write it down, but I do it. Why don't you just post it so everyone can benefit?

ahem...and remind me, Counsel, which group were you in????:rolleyes:

OK, I'll reel my neck in. :o

Wind. Wind - not reel.

NDD:

You probably have ingrained many of the eight factors so you no longer consciously attempt to do them. Although there is no way to know if you are doing all eight at once, one thing I can bet on is that you are firing the shot when the barrel is pointed into your target. You have conditioned your finger to move when your eyes see.

My comment on SFAUC trained guys wasn't clear. Sorry. Long and quite hot week with 18 medics on a firing range.

Many guys going to SFAUC have little experience in the type of consistent speed and precision demanded by this and other courses of its nature. They learn the eight steady hold factors in class then head to ranges to put them into practice. However, if you just put eight things into a guys head that he must do at one time to make a good shot -- he will take those eight things with him and consciously attempt to do all eight. This sets the stage for guys not achieving what ever goal they may have envisioned for themselves and thus causes a mental obstacle. Guys tend to work themselves out of these issues but why would anyone want to start them out at a disadvantage I often wonder?

I do focus on position but also realize that in most shooting situations, the guy won't be in a good firing position so he must have the confidence to rely on his ability to pull the trigger when he sees his barrel is pointed into the target.

Our limitation tends to end up being the issued rifle, ammunition (particularly), and sighting system more so than a huge amount of human error.

Again -- am tired but I hope this explains things from my perspective at least.

Gene

Roger Brother Gene, as usual we agree more than disagree.

I think you are absolutely correct in your analysis and will only offer this in response - yes, I no longer have to think about them - unless I miss. When I do miss, it is my fault and I can usually trace it back to one of The Eight. I don't know of another way to get to unconscious competence than starting from the beginning and working through The Eight until they can be applied without conscious thought. If you have suggestions, please, pleeease share.:)

Stance - I don't kick feet after the first 1 minute. In fact, I will make them change their stance (strong foot forward, feet parallel, etc.) to show them they shoot from the waist up and they don't have to worry about where their feet are. The Eight are relative - The Stance doesn't have to be a book stance, as long as you have a relatively stable platform - but you do have to have a Stance. Does that make sense? Good firing position to me means being able to engage from the best possible position for the situation. Not specific degrees and angles.

The ability to pull the trigger means to me the ability to pull the trigger correctly. When he sees the barrel pointing at the target means he sees the barrel by way of its component part the front sight.

Speed, efficiency, economy of motion and the combat application of The Eight - all of which I call elegance - can only come from hours of repetitions as far as I know. But in order to get good solid hits under stress time after time - consistency - the fundamentals have to be applied. To do it in a fight, they have to be applied unconsciously

Breathing is a good one. A lot of people say it doesn't apply in combat shooting. I agree it doesn't apply to the individual shot the way we do with sniper shots. But I do breath when shooting. And I try to get breath control taken care of outside. A couple of deep ones and then a rhythm. And then another big one when done for the moment.

SFAUC, SFARTEAC, no combat shooting school in the world will give one the level of competence of which we are talking. They will give one the basics. competence will only come from hours and hours of practice. With a coach where possible - alone if not. Shooting is an individual skill to me.

So are you saying that the eight principles can never be achieved or they must be taught in a broken down fashion until each one is mastered to be able to achieve the eight principles?

BTW Gene
WTH? It will never get any easier....:cool:

RL:

I simply can't offer much advice unless you can state your end state.

I do know this much -- no matter if you are shooting a MG or a pistol. Condition your finger to move when you eyes see a good sight picture.

Drills depend on the discipline you are entering, the time you have available, range conditions, and a bunch of other variables. Advice?

1. Determine the discipline you want to dominate. High Power, Three Gun, IPSC, IDPA, Cowboy Action, the various shotgun sports, Bullseye Pistol, etc. "I want to just plink" isn't a discipline. If you want to become very good, you better compete in what ever discipline you desire. That is the ony way civilians can assess their skills with a set of conditions and standards. Realistic or not in terms of combat, that is the hard truth in terms of becoming a fine marksman.

2. Study the discipline you have chosen and go to some of the matches to see if it meets your needs. If it does, it best become your passion -- to a point. Take my word for it -- to a point.

3. Set short and long term goals that relate to your chosen discipline. These will be directly related to your end state. Write them down, do a real good sanity check on them, change them as you need to in order to be realistic concerning every factor that can interfere with achieving these goals, then put them on a calendar using the first person and without any ambiguity.

4. Your training will be determined by the discipline you choose. You have brains and know what you need to focus your attention towards. Set a training plan in conjunction with your goals that is realistic and write down exactly what you will do during each training event. How many rounds, fired at what range, from what postion. And what you demand from yourself in terms of results.

5. Be able to look at your performance and self without emotion. Make conclusions about your performance in terms of your strengths and use those strengths to eliminate short falls.

6. Always have another goal to achieve as you will achieve the ones you set.

Other advice? Sure.

Learn what 'calling your shots' is and put it to good use in your development. If your calls are on spot, you have trained your eyes to see. If your shots are all in the X ring at the same time, you have a good zero and your finger has been trained to pull when your eyes have seen.

Gene

NDD

I have a dumb question I'm self teaching pistol CQB and other then the FM you posted about is there any other good books to read? Right now im reading the 5th edition of combat handgunnery by Massad Ayoob is this a good book for me to learn from?

Thanks Sir!

that's the mindset...subtle don't get it...

Ok, numbah 1 - I din't post the FM, the TS did. Numba 2 - you can't "self teach pistol" and you have no idea what CQB is. Pay the money and get a good Instructor. Otherwise you will develop some bad habits that will be very hard to break. You can't learn this stuff from a book. Books are to give you ideas when you have mastered the basics. That's why we don't do the correspondence course thing anymore.

I personally don't care for Mr. Ayoob much - caveat: I don't know him but from his writing.

Seriously, find a good Instructor if you want to do this.

I want to be able to dominate any hostile sitation.

Sir would you know of anyone in the Fort Campbell area?

LOL - I win! I win! That's one Gene - #4! And I'm claiming #1 as well because you mentioned stance first! By the end of the week, we'll have come full circle.:lifter ;)

a rather broad goal...i would suggest you determine the most immediate threat...pick your most likely tools (weapons) and determine how you will achieve mastery of those tools (weapons)...then you pick the next most likely threat, work on that while you refine your mastery of your first priority...then...

it never ends...you only die eventually...let's hope for old age...

LOL - you keep talking about Ayoob and CQB, you're going to get your first chance very quickly.

Now hush - I'm gloating.

Also im sorry its not called CQB what i want to learn. Is it called force on force?

Numbah 1 - Don't evuh call me Sir.

Numbah 2 - No, do your research. It's your money. Why on Buddha's green earth would I know anyone in that leg hell?

I'm about to sling your rucksack down the hall. HUSH!

Im sorry for the "sir" thing just the way my parents taught me.

I'll also do some searching online. Thanks again for your patience.

You need to get the TS' permiso before you do that - this is an open board and he didn't get that knowledge out of a box of Crackerjacks.