Huey,
I would not be able to crank off a "warning" shot due to policy restrictions...but that doesn't mean you can't. We all have our limits

You do not see a weapon on them at any time.

Everyone,

Think about this...

If have the rifle attached to your body by a sling be it a single, a double, or a 3 point sling system (whatever you have). Now can you still do your muzzle strikes (i.e. is your sling long enough to allow you to muzzle strike)?

I like the potential of transitioning to a less-lethal means such as baton or Taser however if you miss with the Taser or it malfunctions what is your plan "B" and with the baton what are you going to do with your rifle while you swing that baton? My experience has been that the rifle will flop all over the place unless you can effectively trap it to your body.

I let more respond before I add a little tweak to this scenario...

Bright light to the eyes, sidestep and use non-lethal, hard hands, or impact weapons to put him on the ground.

If a weapon is presented, fire until he is no longer a threat.

TR

Hello all

1) Front kick to abdomen, this will stun as well as create more space
2) Immediately follow through and step in and give him the good news with your rifle butt (or anything else) until no longer a threat.
3) Check surroundings for any further threats

Hoepoe

I like Hoepoe's one.

It's interesting your policies don't allow warning shots...but that's a whole differant thread.

Question Joe;

What type of enviornment am I in? Am I in an enclosed area (room, hallway, basement, alley) or somewhat open such as a backyard, field, busy street, empty lot, etc?

I agree with a muzzle jab to the solar plexus, avoiding hands on. My primary reason is I did once have an individual rush me in a similar manner (which is the only reason I’m responding to this). More out of reflex I stepped into the rush and jabbed my muzzle into that area, it required little force and only one strike to stop his attack and I was still in good position, able to quickly adjust and respond to any further attack from him or anyone else.

My other reasons would be the solar plexus is a good target area, soft, center mass, and near my own natural carry position. It's smooth and fast. It’s hard for an attacker to continue while trying to get air, their natural inclination seems to be to curl up and try to breath. It gave me a chance to avoid a grappling situation. It also keeps my hands on my primary weapon; if the attacker managed to bring up a weapon I’m confident I could quickly put a bullet or five in him.

Given you stated this is already escalated to hands on my responses would be to put my knee hard in his groin, stomp his instep, rake his kneecap and shin with the edge of my boot, dig the muzzle up into his solar plexus, head butt him with my helmet. In short anything to break free of his hands without falling, and then ram the muzzle into his solar plexus and put him on the ground.

SJoe,

Yes, you can execute a fast, short-stroke muzzle strike with an attached 1/2/3 point sling. In fact, the limitation of a short stroke is probably better in the long run, as without something stopping you, you may be tempted to 'reach out' too far, putting yourself off balance and presenting an opportunity for the BG to grab your barrel. The downside is you need to be very close to the BG to execute the strike, which means you let him in too close to begin with. Since this appears to have a heavy LE flavor (and comes with the associated ROE), TR appears to have a very good solution.

As for the rifle management after transition question, yes it will swing around, but if you're using a one-handed device (ASP, OC, etc), you can stabilize the rifle with your weak hand, as the rifle is hanging near that side anyhow. If you plan to go hands-on with the BG on the ground with a slung rifle, things are going to get interesting regardless.

Assuming in the scenario you're LE, I can only guess at proper department ROE but I'd bet that the transition to Taser/OC would have occured very early in the situation while the BG was still a good distance from you, and that your Plan B was to use the rifle for striking or shooting.

JPH, you're referring to the Tueller drill. As you said, with practice, someone can sucessfully draw and engage a closing BG before the BG gets within contact distance, so the lesson here is...you got it, practice your draw to fire drills so you're capable of doing it. BTW, 15m (almost 50 feet) is a long way away and encompasses a whole lot of people in a mall or busy sidewalk.

I guess I would fail the test. I would shoot the SOB.

Open street about 2000 hrs.

Razor,

Thank you for the insight and clarification it makes total sense to me know.


Here is the tweak:

The person who is coming after you is a 280 lb female.

Who might easily kick your ass...A threat is a threat, gender makes absolutely difference to me.

Though it'd be easy to make fun of this, this kind of scenario is well thought out and I enjoy the insight so far.

From a military standpoint I'd remove myself from the middle of the street if possible to seek out cover, create distance, and continue to try and de-escalate the situation to avoid lethal means. A person is of value if I can take them alive. Going through pockets only allows me to glean partial personality traits, not intent or affiliation.

If it would come to blows I'd use her momentum against her and monkey stomp her. I'm not a fan of allowing a person to get ahold of my gear, nor do I like them getting some of my gear and using it against me. Bad things can happen to you if you have gear on. It allows a person alot of options for handles. If you're trained well enough in hand to hand you can use that against an opponent. Joint locks and bone breaks could be done with ease if a person is set on gripping your gear and not letting go. Someone that has a solid background in judo, jujitsu, or other ground combative could explain how to use a persons clothing/ gear against them.

Pepper spray has it's purpose but I've only used it on animals (damn Iraqi dogs like getting close). Butt stroking would do little to slow her down if she was at a dead run, she has momentum and that is what you want to avoid coming into contact with. If she was closing distance slower but aggressively, I'd jab the muzzle into the throat or stomp on a knee. Butt strokes with the M-4 are nice because it has narrow edges on the collapsable stock. It does lack the mass necessary to do a good follow through. I watched MP's in Mosul holding the barrels and swinging like The Babe with little effect. It stuns a person for a second, but unless you hit something vital you'll only serve to sufficiently piss them off. In that case there were multiple protesters and you hit one....you better be prepared to hit them all quick and practice Run-Fu.

Last thing I want is to struggle with a person that is close to twice my weight. She may not be alone and it'd be a shame to be disarmed by another aggressor after she falls on you and keeps you pinned (even for a few seconds).

If she is not alone I'm all for the 62gr option through the melon and transition to the next target.

Good thread Joe!!!

A weapon does not know what gender controls it. I would still neutralize her in the same manner as previousely posted.

(Over hear we have a single sling, attached at the standard points, tip of the barrel and endge of the butt. When in ops, we have this around our neck allowing full movement.)

As stated before; create space, attack and neutralize. Check surroundings.

Hoepoe

why I answer what I did from my experiences.

If the person is a shadeed and wants you to meet Allah, I would not let that person get close to me. If the person is clothed, who knows what is under the clothes, (Maywest Joke inserted here..ya' know pistol in the pocket). One maybe be the baddest dude on the block but there is always someone badder, maybe it is this person. Getting viscerated is a terrible way to find out he stills has a knife.

I have seen people double my size who I could have taken on and won, and people half my size who would have owned me in moments. In combat there is no tie, you both loose. The first mistake would be to allow the person to close the distance. Second mistake to touch your weapon or you. There is no sweatness in knowing you killed the SOB after he blew your arm off or?.

Well I don't know about 280lb women in the street at night, but if I'm wearing kit I tip the scales at 260lbs. Muay-Thai kicks and leg thrusts keep most people at bay, and is how I've dropped people in the past. I've pinned a guy to the corner of the room with my back and knocked him out with my MITCH while clearing my POD. It all falls back on training... you have to train in combatives, 'cuz when you need to you won't magically rise to the occasion and be a Praying Mantis Grandmaster. "Watch the hands"... I would hate to be the guy to have to explain in front of a jury why I shot a bad-guy because as a "green beret" I didn't have the combative skills to neutralize an unarmed opponent.