Great
 

Alright,
Now we are getting to the serious stuff. Like I stated in my OP, this realm of shooting I am totally un-educated in, that is why I asked. Now I have a list of questions to answer, I did not even think about some of the issues in the questions, Thanks Reaper for getting me to think outside of the box on this.

As far as hunting or precision rifles, not ever shot for a group. I killed an antelope many years ago with AK variant. Range: approxiamtely 100 yds, two shots, First shot broke it's spine, second shot through the heart.
The above was done with iron sights, no optics.
Engagement: mainly animals but if needed two legged creatures also.
Hunting: mainly deer and elk.
Total rounds: Rifle precision, not enough; maybe 100 if that. That is why I stated I am new to this.
Once I find a platform that is the initial, plan on shooting bi-weekly.
Only formal training involves pistols, I am a trainer in that discipline. No other formal besides my training in LE on the shotgun and patrol rifle.
I realize that a high dollar rifle does not make a shooter, just was wondering what your guys opinion was of the system and the fact that it has a quick change barrel and what effect that has on accuracy. That thing is WAY out of my price range anyways. My wife would kill me.
Again, not necessarily wanting a removable barrel, see previous.
I don't necessarily want to engage at 1500 yds.. I believe if you can't get closer than that then you should not be hunting. But, on the other hand would not mind having the ability, better to have and not need than need and not have.
That is fine with me on the 30'06 just what I was looking for, recommendations.
I think maybe I worded my relpy in such a way that I gave the impression of that sniper thing. I am past the young age of wanna be and just want to be prepared and learn something new for me. If I wanted to be a sniper, I would have joined the armed forces some 26 years ago and done that. Instead I went into LE, followed my fathers footsteps I guess and did what I did.
Again, probably did not clarify that I have a self-defense option already taken care of in the carbine area. Looking for hunting or precision rifle now, hence my OP.
Hopefully that will help, I have been getting good ideas from people already reference this.
Buffalobob please PM me reference this, maybe I have been told wrong. Wow, someone lied to me. LOL.
Again Buffalobob, not wanting to build it, was just asking about the accuracy potential of such a creature.
Like I stated in my second post, leaning heavily toward the Rem 700 action unless there is something better that would be recommended.
Hollis, yes already checked there, and I am set up through Brownells to buy wholesale too. Found out recently Rem is no longer making the part.
Justinmd, you mentioned that you would take the T3 over the Rem, so would you take the T3 over the Sako too, or would that be a step down?
Enquiring minds want to know. Thanks guys, sorry for the confusion.

Just spoke with my gunsmith (I love saying that - makes me sound affluent; just wish I could afford to do most of what he recommends) and he said various unflattering things about your lack of experience/knowlege. Bottom line - take your Rem 721 to a competent gunsmith and let him work it over. It's compatible with most Rem 700 parts and perfectly adequate for your needs. Trigger, bedding, maybe recrown the existing barrel, and decent optics. Remember - you said survival - that means only taking high percentage shots. All you need is MOA accuracy and optics adequate for dawn/dusk to +/- 500 yds MAX. .270 is a perfectly acceptable cartridge for your purposes. If you want to rebarrel into a 30-06 you can take any North American game at reasonable range. If you handload, it gets even better. Save the Manners/McMillan stocks, Lilja barrels, Jewel triggers, and NightForce optics for after you win the lottery.

Thanks
 

Peregrino,

I am not interested in getting into a flame with anyone here. Maybe I am reading too much into your post.
Anyways, no you can no longer buy a Rem 721 extractor, nor does Rem make them anymore, Remington gunsmiths confirmed that and in Brownells Gunsmith Kinks, #4 page 342, it says that, " Rem 721/722 extractors are no longer available." There are several factors that I have looked at that have convinced me that I am not going to mess around with the extractor on this rifle. First and foremost is that without putting out alot of money for a mod to fix it or putting in a sub-standard, but workable part; is just not what I am willing to do with my late father's gun that was handed down to me.
The reason I am looking for another rifle is that I want to keep this Rem 721 as original when my dad gave it to me for a family keepsake.
No where in any of my posts have I alluded to that I knew what I was doing. Just asking questions and wanting to know information about precision rifles. I never claimed to be a gunsmith or anything of the sort. I play around doing some of it but ONLY on my rifles, my little hobby. I believe if you can't fix it you should not be using it. I have built both of my AR's and they are great little rifles that shoot just fine. I am sure they out-shoot me. Am I a gunsmith NO, just like fixing/building MY OWN rifles.
I am not looking to do any mods to this rifle at all, hence my OP and asking questions about precision rifles.
Thank you for your time and information Peregrino and most of all, Thank you for your service.

That is archery range, not rifle range.


The most recent world record at 1K for a 10 shot group was set at Williamsport Pa. using a 300 WSM and Berger 210s. Group size was under 3 inches. That is only relevant to say that the 300 WSM is an accurate cartridge that competes favorable with the 300 Win Mag. Both cartridges have reasonable throat life. Two of the three people I know who have killed elk at ranges past 2K used to compete at Williamsport.

Bawden, before he designed his 338, used a 300 Win Mag and Nosler 180 ABs to kill two or three elk at ranges beyond 800 yards.

I do not have any personal experience with either cartridge but I know Bawden and most of his work was done with witnesses present so there is not much doubt about whether he actually did the things he said.

I will just remind you that you are on a forum dedicated to military skills and that is not the same as hunting skills. A military chamber in a rifle is a lot different than a specialized long range hunting rifle. All of my chambers are tight but not to the extent of needing to neck turn. Basically what I specify is minimum SAAMI. The throat is where one must make decisions and then live with the results. If one is going to shoot long high sectional density VLDs then the throat is cut so that the bullet is not seated down into the case body occupying space that is needed for powder. This then means the rifle may not shoot shorter bullets very well nor factory cartridges unless you can find ones that jump. It also may cause you grief in that the bullet will not longer fit into your magazine and then you may need to get specialized bottom metal. One way to get around this is to use a long action for a short action cartridge.

There is no disadvantage to using a single shot action for a long range rifle being as travel time is going to be long and if you miss there is a need to stop and think about what you did wrong so you are seldom in a hurry to make a second shot.

Loading manuals and factory ammo are designed for factory type rifles. Most of us who use 28-34 inch barrels for hunting use really slow powders which provide for very good burn in the long barrels and give us extra velocity.

None of this is to say a person cannot use a commercially available sporter weight rifle to kill elk at 1K but the odds of doing so get magnified. Lots of people kill elk out to 600 yards but that is where the average person will not practice nor spend the money for quality optics and quality parts so very few will ever make it beyond that point. For example, my spotting scope costs about $1K, my binoculars cost over $1K, my rangefinder costs right at $1K. So I'm into the sport for $3K and haven't even talked about the rifle.

I'm glad BuffaloBob isn't shooting at me.

A survival and hunting rifle?

How about a nice Springfield Armory M1A with a decent scope?

Ok, done
 

I think I can put this to rest now. I am pretty sure I am going to go with a Rem 700 in 30'06. Price is right and I can put as much money into as I need to make it what I think will fill the gap. Plus, as The Reaper put it, can get into handloading and design different rounds for different purposes. I think that fits right in with your post mojaveman, simple is good.
Are you down in my old stomping ground or somewhere else in the southwest?

Thanks for everyone's input. We're good to go.

Brownells sells new parts. I posted a site Numrichs, they are the largest supplier of used part. They do have a extractor for a Rem 721 in stock, it is for a 300 Win mag. They may eventually get one in for a 270. Also have you tried to google for that part? There are other used parts dealers out there.

Some gunsmiths can make obsolete parts.

A secret to saving money. When you buy a fire arms, shoot it, see how it shoots before messing with it. Assumption is; you know how to shoot.

You can check the trigger, 3.5 pounds with a crisp pull is great. Lesser pull is not necessary better. It can be more dangerous.

Crown, IMHO, is very important to accuracy.

Bedding, is more for target rifles, it does improve accuracy but not that much.

Hunting accuracy is not as tight as target (unless you are Buffalo Bob).

Generally hand loads will group better than factory, assuming you know how to reload. Custom building loads for a specific rifle takes time and skill.

On Caliber, 30-06 is a great round there are many great rounds out there. I would look at a 300 Win Mag, it's difference in hitting power is greater than a 30-06 is from a 270. Any way, depends on what you are hunting, also depends on you.

Comments embedded in your quote.

If it is not a problem, I would be interested to find out what your final choice is and what the range report is.

I've done quite a bit of reading concerning the Sako TRG, and it's looks like a great rifle. That said don't you think I'd look a little funny hunting elk in Montana with it? :)

My brother recently purchased the T3 in .300 Win Mag. I like the action and it shoots much better than I can, which is not saying a lot. I have been looking at the T3, the Remington 700 and also the X-Bolt to replace a model 70 I have had some problems with. I am also trying to determine whether to go with a 30-06 which the model 70 is, or to move to the .300 or .300 WSM. This thread has been very insightful and I look forward to more info from guys with a lot more time behind the trigger than I will ever have. Thanks.

Consider a new Douglas XX Premium Air Gauged barrel for your Model 70 from these people:
http://www.itdcustomgun.com/index.html
Good work, at a reasonable price.

PM'd

A couple of points need to be made when discussing precision rifles. Purchasing such an instrument is like purchasing a Lamborghini or Formula One race car. If you cannot push them to their limits why purchase them in the first place? Some will just because they are some of the finest machines on the market and they have the means to make the purchase, but again, they are not trained to drive them and can/will only do so on public streets.

Same can be said for precision rifles, if you cannot shoot a sub minute of angle, every time, at 100m, 200m & 300m then you need not purchase such a high end instrument. What you need is to take that same money and attend a marksmanship class. Allow me to reiterate what I've said before, 99.99% of people cannot outshoot off the shelf rifles/pistols. These same individuals routinely purchase high end rifles and pistols thinking they will just shoot better....... brilliant idea.

Marksmanship is like learning to golf, you don't become good without putting in the weeks, months & years of training and practice. And you don't become great without a few years of experience.

As Peregrino mentioned, "survival is about the "high percentage" shot" that is a shot that you can make each and every time. If you must move to a comfortable distance to do so, so be it. This is why snipers/hunters stalk their targets, to identify and to make a high percentage shot. Unlike hunters military snipers usually work in pairs the reason is the same, to achieve that high percentage shot. I've always said that after a certain distance the kill is not the snipers but the spotters. The sniper is merely imputing the spotters data and pulling the trigger.

Consistency is the name of the game. Ever watch a "pro" golfer address the ball? A great long range shooter does the same thing each and every time. The steady position, grip, stock weld, sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, non-firing elbow, all of this deals with internal ballistics; before the bullet is launched. Then there's external ballistics, everything that impacts on that same bullet after it's launched, bullet coefficient, wind, humidity, air density, temperature, angle to target, altitude etc. Then there are terminal ballistics , what happens when that bullet strikes an object.

My point, you don't need that fancy rifle if you cannot drive it/push it to its limits. If you understand everything I just posted above, great you have a good general understanding of marksmanship whether you can employ all that was stated above is altogether another matter.