They sold them for more than $1,000.

That just means that Reed found buyers, it does not mean that the weapon is worth $1,000 outside that circle of KAC worshipers.

Personally, I would rather have an LMT M-4 with an SPR upper for the same money.

TR

True. But then again there are those that consider LMT owners of which I am one as Koolaide drinkers that bought into the hype and paid too much :munchin

I'm not a big shooter outside of work and what not, so what I got is good enough for me. As long as it puts bullets were I want them to go I guess.
Most of my money goes into my hotrods.

Any advice on what upper to get? I want to get one with a pre ban suppresor and maybe a new optic for it.

Thanks
Josh

I like my LMT MRP upper and it shoots well as your ability and the ammo you put in it. It has some pluses and minuses. On the plus side barrels are easily changed and the rail is one piece. On the negative side it requires a special tool (which is included) to change the barrel, the barrel isn't interchangable with other systems and weight might be on the heavy side.


If I used it as a tool of my trade the barrel would be a worry because it isn't interchangable with other systems.

http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=56&cid=8

For plicking and trips to the range it is overkill but I love it none the less.

I also considered Sabre Defense:
http://www.sabredefence.com/commerci...ocus=upper#spr

hate to burst your bubble but the only way it could ever be considered in Mint condition is if it was NIB. This rifle has not only been fired by yourself, but the spray paint job, no matter how well done, will murder the resale value.

I built my own from the ground up designed to use in close quarters, vehicle ops and PSD work. It's not an outreageous Hollywood custom at all but I still have more than $4000 invested in the weapon. I've put more than 8000 rounds through her, replacing extractor and gas rings usuallly every 1500 - 2000 rounds, The entire bolt and carier assembly at about 6000 rounds. The Noveske barrell life is approx 15,000 - 20,000 rounds with regular maintenence. So even after the 8000 rounds the weapon is has no noticeable wear. Yet the most I can hope for if I were to sell it as an individual would be around $900 - 1000 if I'm lucky.

If you're not looking to spend much time fine tuning but you want top performance out of the box I'd have to say invest in the Noveske complete upper SBR with Krink. Hands down, the finest performance I've ever had in any M4 variant.

It's built using the Vltor upper receiver, Noveske heavy 10" bead blasted matte stainless barrel and Krink Flash suppressor. The Krink eliminates cycling problems associated with short barrelled rifles completely. Regardless of ammo choices, I have suffered zero malfunctions using it. The bolt and carrier assembly is included and all parts are full auto rated. Includes a Noveske rail system which shares the exact same plane as the flat top upper so mounting options are simple, co-witness is true. BUIS from Troy. It's not cheap at $1400, but the only thing you need to do is pin your own ordinary lower reciever to it and start shooting sub MOA

Sub MOA out of a 10" barrel?

At 100 yds, Noveske guarantees sub MOA peformance on their 10" uppers. The reason for this is the same as why they are reliable.

The Krink flash suppressor creates a strong back pressure which is almost equal to the pressure from a 16" barrel producing enough force to complete the bolt cycle. The Krink also assists in the effeciency in which the gases are burned. In most 10" barrels with 5.56, unburned powder escapes the barrel before ignition and velocity is compomised. The krink causes some of the gases to recirculate before exiting due to it's shape, much like a suppressor will encourage gases to fold rearwards and cool before exiting the barrel.

The end result is a 10" barrel which peforms with muzzle velocity very near that of a 16" barrel.

Of course, the Noveske barrels aren't average barrels either, they're match grade heavy machine gun rated, extended feed ramps, custom matched to the Vltor upper and bolt face. The rifling is an improved polygonal 1X7 which also increases velocity and bullet stability.

It performs, seriously

Sub MOA out of a 10 inch barrel can be had. Noveskes can do it. However a ten inch barrel, no matter what you do to it, will never and I mean not in a million years ever produce the same velocities as a 16 inch barrel will. That krink flash suppressor doesnt create even a quarter of the backpressure that a suppressor will. The reason for the increase of velocity in Noveske barrels is due to the polygonal rifling. Its the same type of rifling that is utilized in a Glock. It is still nowhere near 16 inch velocities out of a 10 inch gun. Its simply impossible. Im sorry to renew an old thread but I will not tolerate bad info being put out to those who would use it to defend their life. If you dont believe myself you can get on the horn with John Noveske himself and tell him of the claims the previous poster has made. He would get a chuckle out of it. His rifles are a cut above, but they are not sprinkled with fairy dust.

Agreed.

Tinman, there seems to be a lot of rumor in that post.

I agree that you can get a MOA or better out of a 10" barrel. Look at what people can do for accuracy with the T-C.

You might want to get out the Chrony and run your own velocity tests. I would expect around 250 fps less from a 10" barrel than a 16", regardless of the make.

I ain't buying that the Krink is all that and a bag of chips either. If it did that much, it would be classified as suppressor.

TR

I think my post is being taken out of context for one thing I stated, and then ignored for the point I was trying to make. I was asked about it's possibility to produce MOA performance, which it does. I never said the Krink would equal a 16" velocity. I said "Near" I only mentioned the back pressure of the Krink to explain why the 10" barrel which is famous for being problematic, is so reliable with Noveske systems, along with it's polygonal rifling. If I hadn't mentioned that, I'm sure someone would have commented quickly about SBRs inherant unreliability. When using the 62gr SS109 from a standard 16" barrel velocity is approx 2989fps. The 10" standard barel is approx 2627fps. A difference of just 327fps. If the Krink and polygonal rifling used together create a back pressure sufficient enough to raise velocity by just 100fps, wouldnt you consider that to be "NEAR" 16" barrel velocity??? After all, you must remember, it does function flawlessly, cycling the bolt on a system designed for 16 - 20" barrels, using ammunition designed for 16 - 20" barrels without gas problems which are associated to SBRs and low velocity.

The krink creating backpressure has nothing to do with the veloicty of the projectile. It increases gas fed back into the chamber area possibly beating the crap out of your weapon because of increased bolt velocity. You would also have to use a heavier buffer to compensate for this. If the gas system hasnt been optimized for just the krink then you could run into problems when installing a different flashider or suppressor. This could make the gun more unreliable if you changed it either way. Backpressure has almost nothing to do with velocity. If at all. Even suppressors like AAC, Surefire, etc all create way more backpressure than the krink and its like 15 fps. Hardly getting you near 16 inch velocities. The krink suppressor stops all flash and directs the muzzle blast away from the shooter, giving the perception of a quieter rifle. Its not some magical velocity increaser.

I agreed with you on the accuracy issue, but do not buy into the Krink hype.

I have a LMT 10.5" SBR that runs flawlessly. As you can read elsewhere here, I took it to a tactical carbine course and put over 1,000 rounds per day through it for several days with no upper problems, including several hundred rounds per day with a SureFire FA556K can mounted. I have fired bullet weights from around 40 grains up to 77 grains through it and the function of the upper has been flawless.

The problem is that too many companies (and individuals) think that all you have to do to create a shorty is to cut the barrel down, and many do not shoot it enough to find out that they will not run.

I have spoken extensively with firearms designers and engineers, and the cycle on the AR-15/M-16 weapons requires not just gas pressure (which can be increased by overboring the gas port), but dwell time, gas tube volume and length, bolt weight, extractor tension, chamber dimensions and finish, buffer spring strength, buffer weight, ammo, etc.

Good manufacturers take the time to sort all of that out and build a package that will run properly under a variety of conditions. Others will just slap it together and if a rifle is returned, slap a Band-Aid on it and send it back.

I have logged a lot of time over a Chrony shooting suppressed and unsuppressed ARs, and I do not think that you are getting 100 fps from increased backpressure from the barrel and Krink.

TR

So basically you guys are telling me that Noveske is full of it, I'm full of it. The upper reciever I paid almost $1400 for isn't real and I'm only imagining the performance I've been enjoying for the past 6 months is that it???? Or are you saying that it's not possible for someone like myself to actually make an intelligent post? Or maybe you're actually saying that if you guys haven't purchased something yourself then it must be a piece of shit? Give me a fucking brreak I got nothing to lie about, I don't work for Noveske, Im not just citing crap from an ad. I own one of these uppers and use it several times a week. I've owned more SBRs than I can count and this one by far beats them all hands down. I'm an instructor and security operator still in the business and I just tell it like it is. I really couldnt give a shit what you guys believe but don't just assume I'm a liar either.

It's sadly something which I've come to expect here after I made a post backing up another person's claim supporting PMags from MagPul which was quickly attacked and largely ignored. I stated my experiences with the Pmags and backed it up with other information from many sources and it was regarded in the same way, little respect, zeo trust, instead it was as if the post was instantly something to be fought against and disproven simply because it came from a poster with under 100 posts. The next time I visited the site however, suddenly a new post about Pmags was praising them using little more than a few of the same facts once given by myself and ignored. Yet this time it came from a poster with many posts, and so instantly, it was embraced as law.

Really, has the professionalism among you transformed into a country club attitude appearing as "Elitism?"

Why the attitude when someone has an honest disagreement with you? Did I miss the part where someone called you names or used profanity in their comments to you?

If you have another non-Noveske/Krink upper with the same barrel length, take them both to the range with the same ammo and a Chrony and check the MVs under the same conditions. I have shot a Noveske and do not think that they will be as far apart as you are claiming, and I still do not believe that the backpressure of the Krink is anywhere near what you think it is. I do believe that an SBR can shoot sub-MOA, that you paid a lot of money for yours, and will take your word for it that the gun runs.

You are a guest here, and are asking me to disregard my own experiences and accept your word for yours, and your analysis.

If you find my observations offensive, you might want to check your professionalism as an "instructor and security operator", or just find a board where everyone agrees with you on everything.

TR