Touche!

As I was leaving the Army in '89 there seemed to be a lot of statistical information put on evaluation reports (officer and enlisted). And it didn't seem to matter the cause or reason for the high or low stats; something I attributed to over inflated evaluations Army wide.

Jim

Why Do Some Army Recruits Fail?
 

When I was a DS in the BCT Reg't at Gordon '63-'64 the only thing we taught at company level was DD.
Someone got the bright idea to start writing OER's based on the end of cycle proficiency test and range score's.

You have never saw so much lying, stealing and cheating in your life.
Co. Cmdr starting making us stay an extra 2 hours 4 night's starting in the fifth week of training. We had copy's of the test. You can belive he went home at 1730. I got the asshole shipped to Alaska. :D
That's when I decided to pack my bag's and head to Bragg.

BMT

TS:

An assesement and selection process is a good idea.

My comments on the qual issue is because the intent is to qualify to Army standards in order to pass Basic. Harassment as the soldier is trying to qualify hardly assists in meeting the intent as it stands today. If the intent is to see who can qualify with someone harassing the shooter as he is trying to qualify, then I won't argue with it as long as the harassment is part of the conditions and is evenly distributed.

IMHO, Basic and AIT are intended to conditon the soldier to the Army system and culture. Unfortunately, the system and culture they are being prepared to assimilate into is sometimes radically different than the system and culture of a TOE unit. This may sound weird but TOE units are generally grossly inefficient in all aspects of time and resource management while Basic and AIT absolutely must be perfect in these two things. However, TOE units by an large show a degree of common sense leadership that probably surpasses Basic and AIT. Basic and AIT follow strict doctrine and most DIs will admit that much of the time spent doing things in Basic or AIT has no value when it comes to the soldier becoming part of a TOE unit. There is no leeway to change the doctrine and in many cases, a DI has no choice but to train guys in a manner that itself may be ineffective or inefficient.

Two summers ago we spent about ten days of every thirty training replacements for the Brigade. These replacements ranged from soldiers just out of AIT, officers out of the Basic Course, and NCOs and Officers who had been to Iraq already and were going back for a second tour. Bottom line is that Basic and AIT did not prepare soldiers for combat. This varied between the combat arms. The 19Ds were the best prepared. Then the 11's, then the Artillery. We didn't get any tankers as we hadn't fielded the MGS Stryker. The CS and CSS were experienced with weapons to the degree that can be expected even though these branches knew absoloutely that their CS and CSS troops had a very high probability that they would have to use those weapons. Put it to you this way, we bought twenty M-68's so we could train the Infantry AIT replacements on a sight that has been general issue to the Infantry for several years. The Brigade CSM sent us twenty sets of Oakleys from Iraq so we could train with eye protection. There was such a total difference between the ideas and concepts these guys brought from Basic and AIT and the reality of a TOE unit in combat that it was scary. I am thankful that we were given the time with these guys to do what we did before they deployed.

Conversely, it was very apparent that the Combat Arms OBC's did do a good job of preparing the LTs for combat -- from individual skills through leadership. From what I understood talking with these LT's, the OBC courses seem to have an easier time when it comes to changing what is being trained and why.

I don't envy Drill Sergeants. Many of them get slammed for things that don't make sense to me. They really have to be totally aware of every potential thing that can get them in serious trouble. Very high stress IMHO. One thing about them is that the ones who last through a tour seem to have a desire to go back "On the Trail" as they say.

Gene

Very true. Ours tell us daily how much they can't wait to get off Sand Hill and get back to the real Army.

About an hour left on pass. One month to Infantry school graduation, then another step forward in the pipeline. I can't express how much I look forward to getting into a class of 18 candidates instead of 11-series trainees. Thanks again to those here who let us candidates enter the process somewhat forewarned.

BMT this is very well said. This maybe off, but my .02

I teach my kids to say Yes & No Sir/Mama, thank you, and Please to welcome. Very few if any parents do this.

I think if we as parent teach our children the right and wrong along with the values that the Greatest Generation was brought up with, maybe America would have a better chance in the World arena. We fail as parents because we are looking at ourselves and not looking at those kids. American’s are more worried but Dick and Jane than there kids.

Our Cities make laws for a city that kids can’t play football to baseball in the streets, but the city fails to make parks for the kids to play in.

Why do kids fail in the military training center. To me it’s all about America failing as a parent and/or a teacher.

I did a year at Ft Lost in the Woods, Leonardo Wood, not as a DS. While I was there I had two guys that were with me back in 27th ENG that were now DS. They hated just about every minute of it. Why, because of the “rules” to protect the Trainees. BCT was to break them down and make the as a unit not as an individual.

I remember the “rules” put on us non DS NCOs. I remember be counseled about having told a soldiers to fix their uniform and head gear. I told two soldiers (trainees) that were walking back from a chow hall to fix their top because it wasn’t buttoned right and one at all. They had they caps kicked back like most all wear Ball caps now. When I walked up to the Chow hall the two DS outside ask me, me in uniform, what Company I was with. I told me basically I couldn’t talk to the Trainees. Long story short, it made its way back to my Company 1SG. He was cool with it and just told me don’t talk to the trainees just tell their DS. This Post has it rule and we, NCOs can’t use our General authority to correct a Suck-up (with a F). Living on a BCT base sucks because of the rule, at that time I was single so the few bars I would go to I had to look hard to ensure the chic I was talking to wasn’t a trainee.

I just got back from tdy at Ft Jackson a week ago, and it's the same way. Part of the initial briefing when we got there was "don't talk to the trainees". One of the DSs I talked to told me that now they get to keep their cell phones, weekend passes every weekend, they can smoke and chew now, in BCT. The only time they really feel any hardship is the first two weeks, if then. Our billets were right next to a shopette used by all the AIT soldiers, and we'd constantly see them walking around jacked up, I saw one kid walking around with his winter PT jacket unzipped, one pant leg rolled up to his knees, like he was back on the block, it was an excercise in self restraint if ever ther was one.

The Spartans are gone. So are open bay barracks and physical counseling in the latrine. The task at hand is to get the job done with what you have.

Even with all the changes indicated in the postings, I can not believe that a drill sergeant would be dumb enough to harass a trainee on a firing range during qualifications....... I also don't believe there were stress cards or stress circles.

Jim

Guys:

What ever else Mtngoat may say on this list, :cool: I will personally attest to the fact that he teaches his kids to be respectful.

Gene

What is Mangudai?
 

My 2 cents - go w/a stress test for all enlisted and OBC personnel - model it after GEN Granges' Mangudai.

"He had a selection process that he put potential leaders of his force through," Grange said in early December, 24 hours into the most recent Mangudai exercise. The Mangudai commander would take his troops out into the wilderness for several days, deprive them of food and sleep, and then present them with physical and mental challenges to wear down their bodies and their brains.

"It had to do with inducing stress, and then watching how those possible leaders adapted to those conditions," Grange said, seated in his Spartan quarters in this Belgian military camp where the latest Mangudai session took place.

By Sean D. Naylor

Link to article: http://www.geocities.com/air_mech_strike/training.htm

Did you know some of these new recruits don't even have to PASS the APFT before they graduate and arrive at their unit???:confused:

Absolutely unacceptable! Why have a standard if you don't enforce it?

Since it was already brought up I thought I would weigh in on the relative efficiency of Marine Corps recruit training. I went through in 1994, and I was 27 years old. I am now considering joining the 20th NG SFG and this is how I found this board. I have not posted before. USMC boot camp has not changed much since I went through save the addition of "the crucible" at the end of the 13-14 week cycle. This is a team problem solving event, about 50 hours long, one meal per day and very little sleep. It marks the transition for recruit to Marine and during this short time the relationship between the drill instructor and recruit changes demonstrably. The DI is now a teacher and mentor, and the recruit is now a developing professional warrior. Boot is harder and longer now than when I went through but the Corps has fewer isssues meeting recruiting goals and a lower attrition rate. The reason for this is simple and obvious to anyone who was a Marine. Only the best Marines are offered a tour in recruiting. Only the best are given a spot in DI school. DI school is very demanding and the washout rate is very high. So here is where it becomes obvious. From the first experience with a recruiter, a motivated young man thinks - I want to be just like this guy. Not "I want to work with computers, or get money for tuition". This guy is hard, and tough and I want to be him. Then you get to boot camp, and you get off the bus and stand on some gold colored footprints in formation and the most physically imposing and completely squared away person you have ever seen is screaming at you from a distance of two inches away. He tells you that men who stood in those same painted footprints before you have died in battle serving their country. He explains that you may be asked to do the same. From the first moment 99% of the recruits on the bus want to be that Marine and will do anything asked of them to acheive that. They wake up daily to the bellowing of DIs who are already squared away and perfect. The recruits take a beating mentally and physically from reveille to taps. They develop the ability to process stress, and then more is given to them because they are being trained for combat. No interaction is allowed between male and female recruits. During two weeks of basic marksmanship training no DIs are allowed on the firing line of the known distance course. Honestly, the stress level has been so high for a month at this point that it is feared a recruit may shoot a DI in retaliation. Recruits are taught to shoot by Primary Marksmanship Instructors and watched over on the line by coaches, one per pair of recruits. There is no doubt in the mind of any recruit that any DI could punch holes in the ten ring at 500 meters at any time. I could go on and on, but my point is this - when a young man survives Parris Island it is only because he gave much more than he thought he could. Does not matter if he was rich, or spoiled, or raised by a crack addict mother. He wants it bad, he wants to be that Marine that is screaming at him every day because that DI is extracting a level of performance from him that he did not know existed. He learns to live by a warrior code, that the phrases "lead by example" and "always faithful" mean something within his new brotherhood. "Every Marine is a rifleman" is not a stretch. Yes, an admin guy might need a quick refresher on how to strip and clean the bolt carrier group, but you can stick him in the field and know what he knows because you came from the same horrible place. If the training on the Island was not this tough you could not possibly have that same confidence in the guy who is supposed to be watching your six. Bottom line, you want to wear my uniform, you better be willing to suffer for it or you have dishonored those who have died wearing it. I better know you were not given a free pass or an easy time earning it. I must have in you that "special trust and confidence" when things go bad. I don't care what was in your blood the day you got off the bus so long as you bleed green now. I think making boot easier and shorter to attract more recruits, and reducing stress while in training is not combat effective, and does not produce the esprit de corps necessary to develop a culture of excellence. You fail mentally long before you will fail physically. The objective should be to develop a culture that does not allow the individual to fail mentally because he is truly motivated to become the soldier who is training him.

Frogman_Jake, thanks for joining. Please go to the "Welcome" forum and introduce yourself to everyone in the "Introductions-Your first post goes here" thread. Also, please read all the "sticky" posts at the top of each of the forums to give you a better feel for how we run this website, and to familiarize yourself with our rules.

Roger that. Thanks for the direction.

Bayonet14:

This sounds a-lot like an average ARTEP from the late 1970's. Three or four days without sleep or much food, going from one mission to the next. Very similar to the old SF ARTEPs as well.

Gene