Asia, the Peaceful Face of Islam?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=9319

The War on Terror: A War for Human Rights
By Robert Spencer
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 11, 2003

The Indonesian terrorist group, Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), demonstrated last week that the war on terror is not just an effort to prevent recurrences of September 11; it is a struggle for human rights. As JI celebrates (yes, celebrates) its murder of fifteen people and the wounding of 150 more in a suicide attack on the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta last Tuesday, as well as the death sentence given Thursday to JI member Amrozi bin Nurhasyim, the “smiling bomber” who murdered 202 people in Bali last October, it is instructive to remember that JI is doing all this killing for the Sharia.

The Sharia is the classic code of Islamic law that mandates stoning for adulterers and amputation for thieves, disallows a rape victim’s testimony in her own case, and hamstrings freedom of conscience by prescribing death for apostates from Islam and those who have blasphemed the Prophet — an offense that Christians in Pakistan and other beleaguered minorities in the Islamic world have found to be distressingly elastic. Jemaah Islamiyah, al-Qaeda’s southeast Asian affiliate, dreams of the day when the Sharia holds sway over the entire world, or at least its own corner of it.

Jemaah Islamiyah is fighting to create a Sharia-ruled Islamic megastate in Southeast Asia, comprising Indonesia, Malaysia, southern Thailand, Singapore, Brunei, and the southern Philippines island of Mindanao. In a certain sense it’s fitting that they see blowing up innocent people as a viable means to attain this end, for the utopia that group members envision is just as brutal and unreasoning. There have been numerous indications of that recently in places where the Islamic law that JI reveres is already (in varying degrees) in force:

• The supreme court of Afghanistan on Thursday upheld death sentences for two journalists, Sayeed Mahdawi and Ali Reza Payam. Their crime? Criticizing what they called the “holy fascism” that still holds sway in Afghanistan, and asking: “If Islam is the last and the most complete of the revealed religions, why are the Muslim countries lagging behind the modern world?”

• A court in Pakistan on Tuesday sentenced another man, Bashir Ahmed, to death for making “derogatory remarks against the Holy Prophet and his companions.”

• Women’s groups in Malaysia protested, thus far in vain, against a decision by that country’s Sharia court that men could divorce their wives by leaving a message on their mobile phones.

• The Jordanian parliament rejected on Islamic grounds a measure that would have given women the legal right to file for divorce, as well as another that would have led to stiff penalties for “honor killings”: the barbaric murder of young women by family members who believe that they have committed adultery, thereby shaming the family honor. Many young women have even been murdered after being raped, since traditional Islamic law allows a rape charge to be established only by the testimony of four male witnesses who saw the act itself.

• In Iraq, Muslim authorities in the Shiite holy city of Najaf overruled, also on Islamic grounds, the appointment by American authorities of a woman judge, Nidal Nasser Hussein. Afrah Najem, who like Nidal Nasser Hussein is a female lawyer in Iraq, knows that she has hit the mother of all glass ceilings: “Ours is an Islamic society that would not tolerate a woman judge.”

Draconian blasphemy laws, appallingly loose divorce laws (for men only), a totalitarian resistance to self-criticism, institutionalized brutality and oppression of women — these are the features of the Sharia law that forms the centerpiece of JI’s dream state. Their path to this utopia is stained with the blood of the nightclubbers, businessmen and bystanders that JI is rejoicing over having slaughtered in Indonesia.

Donald Rumsfeld has declared that the United States will not accept an Islamic state in Iraq. One may hope that this indicates that the human rights component of the war on terror has at least some advocates in high places. For the events recounted above illustrate why everyone who values freedom and basic human rights should oppose the Sharia, whether it is implemented in whole or part, not just in Iraq or Indonesia, but everywhere that it hinders the liberty of human beings — including Saudi Arabia.

Like a peevish schoolmarm, the judge who sentenced Amrozi scolded him for perverting Islam and jihad. But it is unlikely that any of the Muslim onlookers who cheered and shouted “Allahu Akbar” (Allah is great) when Amrozi entered the courtroom were brought to a moment of theological reckoning by the judge’s lecture. After all, moderate Muslims still have not answered the nagging question of why, if Islam forbids terrorism and the Qur’an teaches nonviolence, have so many devout Muslims around the world misinterpreted it so thoroughly and repeatedly. Where are the moderate Muslims who can teach not Western non-Muslims, but their fellow Muslims that Islam is peaceful?

If the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) and other Muslim advocacy groups really want to demonstrate that “Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy and forgiveness that should not be associated with acts of violence against the innocent,” let them definitively renounce the Sharia for which Jemaah Islamiyah kills, and which brings anything but peace and mercy to those who must suffer under it. Let them work to create in the United States a truly moderate Islam that accepts the principles of Western secular society and coexistence with non-Muslims. If they do not do this, it is clear: history will judge them as being on the wrong side of this great struggle for the rights of mankind.

oh well, might as well add one more...can't wait for the next draft


The Jakarta Post, August 1, 2005
MUI's fatwa encourage use of violence

Concluding its seventh congress last week, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) issued eleven fatwa that sparked concern over its increasingly conservative stance. Prominent Muslim scholar and rector of the Syarif Hidayatullah State Islamic University Azyumardi Azra shared over the weekend with The Jakarta Post's Ridwan Max Sijabat his opinion on the controversial views of the MUI.

Question: The MUI has issued several contentious fatwa. What is your comment?

Answer: It is most regrettable that the MUI seems to be issuing edicts without consulting the relevant Muslim figures, or dialog with the parties concerned. The fatwa are not enforceable, nor are they binding. It does not have the authority to enforce them.

What do you think is the background of this growing conservatism?

There is something that has been changing in the organization -- before and entering the reform era. The MUI has shifted from being umat-oriented to being government-oriented. During the New Order era, the MUI was used by former president Soeharto's regime as a tool to justify government policies. For instance, the MUI issued a fatwa that allowed the consumption of frogs. The edict was issued to annul another edict banning frog consumption -- issued by the MUI's West Sumatra branch -- and to support the government policy on the acceleration of non-oil commodity exports.

Entering the reform era, the MUI sought to be independent and become closer to the umat (members of the Muslim community). But the fact is that the MUI does not represent all Muslims and this is evident in the increasing number of Muslims questioning and denouncing the edicts.

Why have pluralism, liberalism and secularism been declared forbidden? Are they really against Islam?

The problem here is that the MUI has an understanding that differs from the academic perception on the three isms, because they are dominated by groups who take the Koran and hadith (Prophet Muhammad's sayings) literally and without any rationale or logic.

The Koran teaches tolerance -- including of other religions. The Koran, Prophet Muhammad and Islamic teachings accept differences not only as a reality but also as Allah's grace.

Liberalism is forbidden because the MUI is of the opinion that liberals no longer believe in the Koran, Prophet Muhammad and true Islamic teachings.

The MUI cannot ban Muslims from thinking, because pluralism, liberalism and secularism are not ideologies but ways of thinking. To some extent, the MUI's fatwa are against freedom of _expression and human rights in general.

Why are the edicts outlawing mixed marriages, and on joint prayers with people of different faiths, considered controversial?

The fatwa banning mixed marriages between people of different faiths and of joint prayers performed with people from other faiths negates pluralism. Islam is not the only religion in the country and Muslims have to be able to live side-by-side with people of different faiths.

With the growing controversy, many people are starting to question the necessity of an organization such as the MUI.

But it must be underlined that the MUI is not a state institution. It can issue fatwa and orders to Muslims, but they are not binding and it does no have the authority to enforce them. Legal authorities in the government have no obligation to enforce the edicts while Muslims are not obliged to comply with them.

Because the MUI has no authority to enforce the controversial fatwa, it is the hard-line groups, like the Islam Defenders Front (FPI) who appear at the frontline to pressure the authorities to enforce them. If they believe the authorities have failed, they (the hard-line groups) could directly come to the field to enforce them. I fear that hard-liners will head to Parung in Bogor regency, to bulldoze the Ahmadiyah boarding school and drive away its supporters based on the MUI's fatwa that Ahmadiyah is a heretical sect.

What would you recommend for the MUI in the future?

The MUI should clearly pause for reflection. The MUI plays a strategic role in this predominantly Muslim nation and, therefore, it should consult with all stakeholders in the Muslim community before issuing fatwa.

The MUI will be fully respected and its edicts will be complied with if the edicts are based on fiqih (Islamic jurisprudence) -- not on political interests -- dialogs with all stakeholders and the interests of all Muslims and of the nation in general.

Honestly, I have received many telephone calls complaining about the edicts.

Cut to the chase
 

OK all, there has been a whole lot of chatter filling up the many pages of this thread. How about if we stop dancing around the pole and come up with a straight yes or no answer?

My answer?

YES

I think that the Muslims are further defining the conflict every day.

While I am a trained hearts and minds kind of guy, desperate times call for desperate measures. They are with us, or against us.

Before 9/11, I would have said that the potential for a global religious war was relatively low. Now I believe that it is approaching certainty.

With every additional act of butchery by Muslim extremists, encouraged by so many of their religious leaders, the attendant denials by their people, and the lack of Muslims taking actions against these swine on their own accord, these terrorists alienate more and more of the moderates (and apologists) around the world who have been urging caution.

Eventually, they are going to hit the infidel population hard enough that the gloves are going to come off and it will be open season in a real war on Islam. If pushed hard enough, we can push back. We have interned our citizens and deported our detractors, waged total war, and unleashed Hell on Earth before. If the Muslims do not help get this under control, assist us with tracking these people down, and drag themselves and their faith into the 21st Century, the day may come when we DO have to view all Muslims as threats and deal with them accordingly.

What would we do if NYC, LA, and Chicago were burned off the face of the planet tomorrow, or hemorraghic plague were to kill millions of our people, in the name of Allah? Blame the 19 directly responsible, or their supporters and enablers?

If the millions of "peaceful" Islamic people care about their future, they had better wise up quickly, before too much damage is done.

TR

Not JUST wise up, but RISE UP and put those that are causing the problems into the light of both day and justice !!!

Concur with TR.

Doc

Politicians admit Muslim religion lights the terrorist match
By Jen Shroder (07/31/05)

Shamil Bsayev is planning atrocities similar to the massacre of 330 children and holding a thousand hostages at a predominantly Christian school in Russia. Islamists taunted Christian parents by dangling their dead children by their toes through school windows. Basayev is also credited for holding 800 hostage and 50 deaths at a Russian theater. Basayev said on a rebel website: "Through the kindness of Allah, [we] celebrated a double holiday -- that of the victory over fascism and a small but very important victory over Russia."

Muslim organizations threaten lawsuits of anyone connecting Islam to "Islamist fanaticism" as our government attempts to convince the public that mainstream Islam is peaceful. Richard Ben-Veniste of the 911 Commission dropped a bomb on Hardball and revealed:
"Our mission is to separate Bin Laden and the al-Qaida and the al-Qaida wannabes from the Muslim world at large to make it inhospitable."
There is a need to separate the two because they ARE one. Thus the public saturation of a fabricated Islam, defanged and sanitized, separated from the "extremists" and devoid of Koran verses. But behind the scenes, politicians identify and conclude the obvious:
"This is NOT a war on terrorism. It is a war against Islamist fundamentalist terrorists. These are Jihadists who want to achieve certain goals. They want to get us out of Afghanistan. They want to get us out of Saudi Arabia. They want to get us out of Iraq. They want to get us out of Iraq by using the techniques of terrorists." ?James Gorelick, 911 Commission, Hardball 9/13/04

"This is a religion that is indistinguishable from politics. The politics and religion are the same thing but the promise is eternal life. You know?to kill people, you get rewarded."

[When asked if we never did anything against them politically, would they still rage against us] , "Just ask Bin Laden himself. Bin Laden said three things: ?Get out of the Middle East, convert to Islam and end all the corruption of your society.?" Slade Gorton, 911 Commission, Hardball 9/13/04

"Yet as political, social, and economic problems created flammable societies, Bin Laden used Islam?s most extreme, fundamentalist traditions as his match. All these elements ?including religion?combined in an explosive compound." 911 Commission Report, pg 54.

"We are infidels, we are not simply non-Muslim. We are people who lead good Muslims away from the true faith in the minds of Bin Laden. We are the greater danger, that?s why we are the great satan. It is not about what we did in Iran, it is not about what we?ve done in Iraq or elsewhere, it?s the very fact that our existence, that our pluralism, is a direct threat to their version of Islam." ? Rep. Thaddeus McCotter, "Diplomacy and Counterterrorism", House International Relations Committee Chairman 8/24/04

[Discussing the slaughter of school children in Russia] "Some of them have religious motivations as well as political motivations but the same mindset, the same mindset governed them even though they may have very well not have been members of al-Qaida." [On culture, religion or US policy] "You are separating three things and saying is it this, is it that or is it the third? The three are not indistinguishable among these people." Slade Gorton, 911 Commission, Hardball 9/13/04

"The American taxpayers are spending millions of millions of dollars to provide education for these Palestinian children to no avail, making it worse and perhaps the worst offenders of all, the Saudis?we had representatives of the State Department sitting right where you are, talking about this wonderful friendship and these great partners with us against the war on terrorism, I thought I was living in a parallel universe when I heard that nonsense. The madrassas?we do need to reform them but knowing that the Saudis are getting millions and millions and millions of dollars to fund these madrassas which are all anti-American, anti?Western, so having said that very long introduction, how do we break through it? We support nations that support individuals that do not have our best interests at heart, quite the contrary, they?re our biggest enemies in the world and we dress them up and we take them out on a date and pretend that they?re our lovers and they are NOT." ?Rep. Shelle!
y Berkley, , "Diplomacy and Counterterrorism," House International Relations Committee Chairman 8/24/04

Usama Bin Ladin and other Islamist terrorist leaders draw on a long tradition of extreme intolerance within one stream of Islam...that stream is motivated by religion and does not distinguish politics from religion, thus distorting both...Bin Ladin and Islamist terrorist mean exactly what they say: to them America is the font of all evil, the "head of the snake," and it must be converted or destroyed. It is not a position with which Americans can bargain or negotiate. With it there is no common ground?not even respect for life?on which to begin a dialogue. It can only be destroyed or utterly isolated. 9/11 Commission Report (pg 362, 363)

As politicians admit the truth, our children are being led to "Assume you are a Muslim soldier" on their way to conquer nations in the 7th grade textbook, Across the Centuries, the ONLY funded textbook in California and distributed nationwide. It also invites our children to imagine they are on a pilgrimage to Mecca, which is what Bin Laden believes he is doing as he follows the method of Muhammad, spreading Islam through peace with covert violent groups outlined in the Koran, Hadith and Sunna.

So as Islamist terrorists taunt Christian parents by dangling their dead children by their feet from windows of a Russian school, I do NOT want my son assuming he?s a Muslim soldier. As Islamists issue fatwas for the death of my people, I would rather my son not imagine he?s a part of them, following the footsteps of Muhammad and learning poetic descriptions of a religion that demands his loyalty or threatens to behead his own people as outlined in their holy books.

Shamil Bsayev gives glory to Allah in slaughtering us, even as we are told "Allah" is another name for "God." Doesn?t anyone find it odd that Allah curses God?s children, Christians and Jews, and demands our slaughter in the Koran?

Sources:
Shamil Bsayev:
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/sto...224&p=y5yxy693x
911 Commission Hardball quotes:
http://www.blessedcause.org/indoctr...1%20coverup.htm
What?s in the Quran / Koran:
http://www.blessedcause.org/Quran.htm

Me too. Excellent point.

Me three. My hopes aren't high.

Me too! Muslims can either do a "controlled burn" and get rid of the detritus on the forest floor or leave it alone and see what happens when the flames get into the treetops. (Ask Mr. Harsey how he feels about crown fires.) Anybody excusing Islamic violence or denying that the Quran explicitely condones/demands violence against non-Muslims and "apostates" is at best a Quisling; we won't discuss the "at worst" case. My .02 - Peregrino

Sometimes I think we are waiting for the inevitable tragedy to occur, as if 9/11 wasn't enough. Well said, Sir.

I'm on board with TR

What Islamic Extremists Are Saying about whether we are at war with them
 

On August 01, 2005 posting to the Islamic Renewal Organization, (link edited out by Saca) by Firas on behalf of Ansar al-Sunnah offered a very clear answer to the question “What do they want?” Ansar al-Sunnah wants the entire world under Islamic law and even disparages the Arab countries currently “posing” as Islamic rulers. Note that they also dismiss all possibility of compromise or to even accept dhimmi status of non-Muslims. Finally, it is very clear that the “lesser jihad” or the fighting jihad is the only acceptable means to the end and that it is an obligation, not a choice.

Posted to the Islamic Renewal Organization, link edited out by Saca by Firas on behalf of Ansar al-Sunnah. Original language: Arabic


Today, the Islamic Nation has no succession, no country, no dominance, and no land. It is taken up by the infidel and the apostate, and its people are ruled by unbelieving tyrants with positive laws and forced establishment. Its land has been divided by the infidel nations with untrue and unjustified borders which were dictated to us by the occupying infidels and [Islamic] leaders who exchanged our religion in atheism and branded our generations as slaves.

As for penetrating the enemy lines and deploying agents among different services, this is permissible as long as it causes harm to the enemy as mentioned by most scholars. It is not permissible to penetrate enemy lines to bring about peaceful coexistence, secured living, and personal interest. By commingling, the nation's cause will be lost as it was to so many previous generations [who existed among blasphemous nations].

The inevitable obligation of our time is to follow the tradition of the messenger of God -- May God's peace and prayers be upon him -- by fighting against the polytheists, apostates, and reviving this obligation and keeping firm to revive the nation's sovereignty and enablement
__________________________________________________ _______________

Al-Qa’ida Claims to have Killed Two Algerian Diplomats



On July 27, "Al-Rifi," a contributor to the "Islamic" forum of the Ana al-Muslim website, posted a statement issued by Abu-Mus'ab al-Zarqawi's al-Qa'ida of Jihad Organization in the Land of the Two Rivers [Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn], in which the group announced the execution of two Algerian diplomats.

The statement calls the nation of Algeria a “tyrant state,” and accuses it of “hurting Muslims and launching the war against them.”

Posted to the Ana al-Muslim web site on July 27, 2005:
Statement issued by Al-Qa’ida Organization in the Land of the Two Rivers [ Iraq ]
Original language: Arabic

"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

Oh God, guide our aim and keep our feet firm.

Praise be to God, Who elevated Islam with His support, humiliated polytheism with His might, ordained the vicissitudes of affairs with His commandment, lured the infidels with His cunning, and destined the alteration of the days with His justice. Prayers and peace be upon the one through whose sword God raised the guiding light of Islam.

Today, Wednesday, 19 Jumada al-Thani 1426, corresponding to 27 July 2005, your brothers in the military wing of al-Qa'ida [of Jihad] Organization in the Land of the Two Rivers carried out the verdict of the legal court, which based its verdict on God's command to kill all the polytheists, and also according to the saying of the Prophet, may God's peace and prayers be upon him, who said, 'Kill [Muslims] whosoever changes his faith,' by executing the Chief of the Algerian Mission Ali Bil'arussi, and Izz al-Din Binqadi [referred to later as Balqadi], the diplomatic attache. These are the emissaries of the State of Algeria, which rules with laws other than God's, allied itself with the Jews and the Christians, sent those two apostates in support of the US presence in the Land of the Two Rivers, and followed in their footsteps. 'And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them' [Koranic verse].

We have seen the world's reaction that has not settled yet, when we took those two apostates into custody, while no one seemed to pay attention when the crusaders arrested two innocent women in Iraq . Now having seen what the US has done to Muslims in Iraq , shedding blood, violating honor, and raping women. The states of vice speed up the pace and help the US and stand with those enemies of God. We ask, did the tyrant Arab states not boycott Israel , having claimed that Israel occupied fraternal Arab country? So, what is the reason behind the hurry to help the Jews and the Christians in their aggression against the Muslims in the Land of the Two Rivers? The sight of gold in the goldmine does not imply its precious value. The state of Algeria, the Arab Tyrants, the Western states, and the US have all come form the same hole, the hole of hellfire. Some people are calling on us to release those apostates without carrying out God's verdict; we would like to tell them that no one can intercede to stop [the carrying out of] one of God's laws. We can never forget what the State of Algeria has committed against the Muslims; bloodshed, killing, and destruction. We will not forget what the diplomatic attache Izz al-Din Balqadi did. He was one of those who participated in the massacres of Al-Rayis and Ibn-Talha, which they falsely attributed to the mujahidin and resulted in hundreds of Algerian Muslim victims. As a reward for his performance, sincerity and dedication to the task at hand, he [the diplomatic attache], along with a number of his aides, was promoted from the rank of lieutenant to the rank of major in the Intelligence Bureau.

We have not forgotten what the tyrant state of Algeria does today, hurting Muslims and launching the war against them, particularly the Salafi Group for the Call and Combat, may God protect them and guide their aim.

Have we not warned you, you enemies of God, not to ally yourselves with the Jews and the Christians, and stand in line with the US and follow their plots? Now, we reiterate that the Land of the Two Rivers is no longer safe for the enemies of God; rather, it is fire that will burn all those who follow blasphemy.

Praise be to God, the ones who captured the two Algerians, captured them from among the police force in the middle of Baghdad . Praise be to God, the members of the brigade that captured them managed to return safely, after God bestowed His victory and enabled them [to complete their task]. None of the members was captured. Praise and thanks be to God.

God is Great, God is Great. Glory be to God, His messenger, and the mujahidin."
__________________________________________________ ____________


Al-Qa’ida statement says two Algerian diplomats have been “sentenced to death”

On July 26, "Murasil Akhbar 4," the moderator of the World News Network forum, posted a statement issued by the Al-Qa' ida Organization in the Land of the Two Rivers [Tanzim Al-Qa ' ida fi Bilad al-Rafidayn] in which the group announced a decision by its Shari' ah Court to execute the two Algerian diplomats held captive in Iraq.

Within this statement, the group claims to have jurisdiction within their own Shari’ah court for the passing of this death sentence over other “contemporary despotic governments,” claiming that those governments’ actions have made their representatives legitimate targets for the “mujahidin’s swords.”

Posted by the moderator of the World News Network forum on July 26, 2005:
Statement issued by Al-Qa’ida Organization in the Land of the Two Rivers [ Iraq ]
Original language: Arabic



"Statement issued by the Shari' ah Court

The court' s decision on the Algerian envoys

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Praise be to God, who says: "In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding." [part of a Koranic verse]. May God ' s peace and blessings be upon he who obeyed the Sunnah and [the Holy] Book [Prophet Muhammad], upon his household and good companions, and also upon those who follow them charitably until doomsday.

Due to the apostasy of the contemporary despotic governments that gave their legislation and constitutions precedence over God ' s shari ' ah and injunctions, that ruled Muslims evoking instruments other than the Islamic shari ' ah, that did not make do with this, but also fought those who called for obeying the auspicious shari ' ah, killed honest mujahidin and God-fearing scholars, and supported Jews, Christians, and infidels in the course of their war against Islam and Muslims; the ambassadors of these governments and their representatives wherever they are have become legitimate targets for the mujahidin ' s swords. God says: "Then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them." [Part of a Koranic verse]

The prophet, may God ' s peace and blessings be upon him, says: "Kill whoever changes his religion." This hadith is related by Al-Bukhari.

Based on the above, the Shari ' ah Court of the Al-Qa ' ida Organization in the Land of the Two Rivers has decided to carry out God ' s ruling on the diplomatic envoys of the apostate Algerian Government, who are Chief of Mission Ali Belaroussi and diplomatic attache Azzedine Belkadi by killing them.

This is the ruling that also applies to the ambassadors and envoys of the remainder of the infidel governments. There can be no destiny for them except killing. Praise be to God, backer of the mujahidin.

May God ' s peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, upon his household, and upon all his companions.

God is Great. God is Great. Pride belongs to God, to his messenger, and to the mujahidin.

And there it is.

That journalist, for once, brought these matters into a clear and unambiguous light.

It is the Sharia, and the dream of a Caliphate, that is driving Muslim fundamentalists. They consider any Muslim who does not subscribe to their own interpretations of scripture to be an apostate, and this is the heart of the conflict between Shia and Sunni.

The Taliban implemented an Islamic state. They were a model, an example, of how any future Islamic state founded upon Sharia law would appear.

The madrasas are funded by any number of Islamic charities, and they do preach an unreconstructed, fundamentalist form of Islam. This problem is global. There are madrasas everywhere. These Islamic charities are primarily Saudi.

I think that TR is correct: our own Western traditions of tolerance work to our own detriment. We have a long tradition of freedom of worship. In this case, that tradition is incompatible with the defense of our societies and values, and a continuing hands-off policy towards the madrasas, the Islamic charities, and the basic contradictions inherent in Saudi policies only prolongues the inevitable.

The last century was the century of the conflict between communism and democracy.

This century will be the century of conflict between those who seek to establish an Islamic Cailphate and the rest of us.

God forbid that the next terrorist attack on US soil incorporates weapons of mass destruction. Nothing should be so feared on the planet as an America united in a demand for vengeance.

Iran Willing to Share Nuclear Technology
 

Who would have ever thought......

Notice how the iranian president mentions he will share with other "islamic nations" not nations in need of nuclear power, but "islamic nations". let's keep our heads in the sand and "hope" all the other islamic nations he shares irans nuclear tech with are all just as level headed as the iranian people. :rolleyes:

TS


Iran Willing to Share Nuclear Technology
Sep 15 12:30 PM US/Eastern


By NASSER KARIMI
Associated Press Writer


TEHRAN, Iran


Iran is willing to provide other Islamic nations with nuclear technology, Iran's hard-line president said Thursday.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made the comments after meeting Turkey's prime minister on the sidelines of a gathering of world leaders at the United Nations, according to the state-run Islamic Republic News Agency.

Ahmadinejad repeated promises that Iran will not pursue nuclear weapons, IRNA reported. Then he added: "Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the Islamic countries due to their need."

Iran has said it is determined to pursue its nuclear program to process uranium and produce energy, despite European attempts to limit it. The United States accuses Tehran of secretly seeking to develop nuclear weapons, a charge Tehran denies.

___

Associated Press Write George Jahn contributed to this report from Vienna.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/15/D8CKQ3G00.html

No big surprise here, but with the charade that is continuing at the UN thought I would post this.

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publ...cle_9657.shtml

The dispute between Iran and the West on the nuclear issue can be summed up by the answer to one main question: When Iran says that it's interested in developing nuclear capacity, what does it mean?

Ali Larijani, the new secretary of the "Supreme Council for National Security" in Iran, went on a lot of trouble this week to convince the western press that Iran's intension is to gain nuclear capacity for peaceful use only. At the same time, his own brother, Mohammed Javad Larijani, who is also the head of the Physics Research Center in Iran, told an Iranian audience a completely different story.

During a speech he made at a conference on "Nuclear Technology and the Iranian people's will" on August 1st, Mohammed Javad Larijani told his audience that "It is our right to have nuclear defense and we will not be ready to give up this right..." and that "Iran's dispute with the West should have been over nuclear weapon production rather than over the nuclear fuel cycle...."

GWOT my Arse.
 

So if we're not at war with islam then would someone explain the Bali bombings? To free Indonesia? To rid Indonesia of the American military presence? (oops, there is no American military presence in Indonesia.) Or maybe, just as saudi arabia, the moslem majority does not want ANY western influence in their "mainstream" moslem majority country? This is my thoughts as the targets were tourists, western tourists.


Officials Eye Al Qaeda in Bali Bombings
Sunday, October 02, 2005

BALI, Indonesia — Indonesia (search) said Sunday it suspected two fugitives linked to Al Qaeda had masterminded the homicide bombings of crowded restaurants in tourist resorts on the Indonesian island of Bali that killed at least 26 people and injured more than 100.
Maj. Gen. Ansyaad Mbai (search), a top Indonesian anti-terror official, identified the two suspected masterminds as Malaysians alleged to be key members of the Al Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiyah terror group. They are also accused of orchestrating the 2002 Bali nightclub bombings, as well as two other attacks in the Indonesian capital in 2003 and 2004. The nightclub bombings, which also struck venues crowded with tourists on a Saturday night, killed 202 people, most of them foreigners.
In the latest attacks, three homicide bombers wearing explosive vests set off near-simultaneous explosions that devastated three restaurants crowded with diners on Saturday night.
"The modus operandi of Saturday's attacks is the same as the earlier ones," said Mbai, who identified the two suspected masterminds as Azahari bin Husin (search) and Noordin Mohamed Top.
He said the two were not believed to be among the three homicide attackers. The assailants' remains were found at the bombing scenes but they have not yet been identified, he said.
(Story continues below)
"I have seen them. All that is left is their head and feet," he told The Associated Press. "By the evidence we can conclude the bombers were carrying the explosives around their waists."
Video footage of one of the blasts showed groups of tourists, many of them apparently Westerners, seated at candlelit tables talking and sipping drinks in the seconds before the explosion. The footage, obtained by Associated Press Television News, then shows a bright flash accompanied by a loud bang and gusts of black smoke.
It was not immediately clear whether the three homicide bombers were included in the death toll which climbed to 26 on Sunday, according to Sanglah Hospital spokesman Putu Putra Wisada. Six Americans were among the injured.
Long lines formed at checkout counters at Bali's international airport with a steady stream of taxis dropping off passengers.
"We were up all night trying to change our ticket," said Veli-Matti Enqvist, 51, who had been scheduled to leave Bali with his wife on Wednesday. The couple was walking on the beach when they heard the blasts. "We finally found something ... we're going."
After the 2002 bombings, there was an immediate and massive evacuation of foreign visitors which devastated the island's tourist industry.
The latest bombings struck two seafood cafes in the Jimbaran beach resort and a three-story noodle and steakhouse in downtown Kuta. Kuta is the bustling tourist center of Bali where the two nightclubs were bombed three years ago.
The latest attacks came a month after Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono warned of possible terrorist attacks. On Saturday, he blamed terrorists and warned that more attacks were possible. The president was in Bali on Sunday to see the devastation firsthand.
"We will hunt down the perpetrators and bring them to justice," he said.
Western and Indonesian intelligence agencies have warned repeatedly that Jemaah Islamiyah was plotting more attacks in the world's most populous Muslim country. Last month, Yudhoyono said he was especially worried the extremist network was about to strike."I received information at the time that terrorists were planning an action in Jakarta and that explosives were ready," he said Saturday.
Dozens of people, most of them Indonesian, waited in tears outside the morgue in Sanglah Hospital, near the island's capital Denpasar, for news of friends and relatives missing since the attacks.
One Australian and a Japanese citizen were among those killed, along with 12 Indonesians. Hospital officials were trying to identify the other victims.
The 101 wounded included 49 Indonesians, 17 Australians, six Americans, six Koreans, four Japanese, officials said.
The White House condemned the "attack aimed at innocent people taking their evening meal."
"We also express our solidarity with the government of Indonesia and convey our readiness to assist in any way," spokeswoman Erin Healy said.
The bombers struck at about 8 p.m. as thousands of diners flocked to restaurants in tourist areas on the bustling, mostly Hindu island, which was just starting to recover from the 2002 blasts.
The head waiter at the Menega Cafe said the bomb went off at his beachside restaurant between the tables of two large dinner parties, who were sitting in the sand. Most of the 120 diners at the restaurant were Indonesian, he said.
"Everyone started screaming "Allah, Allah, help!" said Wayan Subagia, 23, who escaped with injuries to his leg. "One woman rushed to pick up her child but the little girl was already dead."
Minutes later he heard another blast at the Nyoman seafood restaurant, about 50 yards away.
At almost the same time about 18 miles away in Kuta, a bomb exploded at the three-story Raja restaurant in a bustling outdoor shopping center. The area includes a KFC fast-food restaurant, clothing stores and a tourist information center.
Smoke poured from the badly damaged building.
The bomb apparently went off on the restaurant's second floor, and an Associated Press reporter saw at least three bodies and five wounded people there.
Before the 2002 bombings, Bali enjoyed a reputation for peace and tranquility, an exception in a country wracked for years by ethnic and separatist violence.
Courts on Bali have convicted dozens of militants for the blasts, and three suspects were sentenced to death.
Since the 2002 attacks, Jemaah Islamiyah has been tied to at least two other bombings in Indonesia, both in Jakarta. Those blasts, one outside the Australian Embassy in 2004 and the other at the J.W. Marriott hotel in 2003, killed at least 23.
The group's alleged spiritual leader, Abu Bakar Bashir, who has been jailed for conspiracy in the 2002 attacks, through a spokesman denied any personal connection to the weekend explosions. There was no statement from the group, which wants to establish an Islamic state across Southeast Asia.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170994,00.html

TS, exactly. From as long as I can remember the Islamic clerics have been blaming the West for the Deen of Islam fading. Our TV, internet, movies etc is causing Muslim to leave Islam or not be "good" muslims. Their goal is simple, the destruction of the anything that interferes with Islam.

I believe there is a Sura in the Qur'an that mentions the obligation of Muslim to make Islam the religion of the world and all "non-Muslims" must be subdued/destroyed.

[QUOTE]To Free Indonesia?

Absolutely.... Of any western influence, even if it is tourism!

Indonesia is the world's most populous nation with 88% of it's 220 million population being Muslim. They are the only southeast Asian country to be a member of OPEC. Yet they have to import oil due to lack of investment in exploration and extraction of same.

It seems to me that anywhere Muslims are in control, or are the conscience of the government (Saudia Arabia comes to mind), DYSFUNCTIONAL is the adjective that best defines the country.

Just one thing that I find a little odd about this proposal in regard to Indonesia: Then why isn't the whole population out on the streets to rid their country of the infidels?

My thoughts:
It seems like the government would have a hard time keeping that under wraps.

Do they really reckon that strong a dependancy on the west? Don't also their interests, for example Aceh, suggest more of a desire to keep the outside out? Yet we're still allowed there.

Just a respectful inquiry, I lack knowledge.
Martin

I would/will address this after some thought, but for now remember most of the masses are "sheeple".

To allow such atrocities without an "enormous" outcry from the sheeple majority is, IMO, a passive go ahead or nod of approval.

TS
Unbeliever

just an eye-witness account:

When I was there, cinemas (American movies) are packed more than they are packed here, fastfood esp. McDonalds (American food) are crowded nearly 24/7, people would spend 2 days to 2 weeks worth of salary for BigMac...and feeling "cool like in the movies," folks were also following the silly red carpet ordeal, fashion, etc. etc. you got the point.

To get the whole population out on the streets, the radicals have to bring the rest of the "believers" to their level of commitment.
....and they do, non-stop. If you dig recent Jakarta Post articles, the radicals are banning less-radical teachings and destroying their mosques and houses.

I'm looking forward to the day when they face the consequences of oppressing freedom.

End beheadings – shoot hostages, orders al-Qaeda
By Richard Beeston, Diplomatic Editor


AL-QAEDA has abandoned hope of defeating the US-backed Government in Afghanistan and instead is concentrating on driving American forces from Iraq, even if that means ditching its brutal methods.

According to the Pentagon, the strategy is set out in a 6,000-word letter sent by Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden’s deputy, to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, head of al-Qaeda in Iraq, in July.

Al-Zawahiri warns al-Zarqawi that his brutal tactics, which include beheading Western hostages, killing hundreds of Shia Muslim civilians and murdering Iraqi officials, could alienate Muslim public opinion. He allegedly recommends shooting, not decapitating, prisoners.

The letter, which the US military claims was intercepted in Iraq, makes clear that al-Qaeda aims to spread jihad to other Arab states and Israel.

Al-Zawahiri, an Egyptian doctor, is al-Qaeda’s ideological head and responsible for its day-to-day operations. In August he claimed responsibility for the July 7 bombings. His letter offers al-Zarqawi advice on tactics and a grand vision for the next stage in the jihad against the West and its Middle Eastern allies.

He predicts victory in Iraq — which he calls the site of “the greatest battle of Islam in this era” — but insists that it is only the first stage of a campaign across the Arab world. He sets out how an Islamic Caliphate must be established in Iraq and then the war taken to neighbouring Syria, from there to Lebanon, then Egypt and finally a battle to destroy Israel.

He considers a clash between Sunni and Shia Islam inevitable but questions the wisdom of bombing Shia targets and reminds al-Zarqawi that half of the battle against America is being fought through the media.

However, beheadings and suicide bomb attacks against Shia targets have continued unabated. This could indicate that al-Qaeda lacks control over al-Zarqawi. Although respected among Islamic militants, al- Zawahiri is a fugitive living on the Afghan-Pakistani border, while bin Laden has not been heard of for nearly a year.

Al-Zawahiri admits that al-Qaeda’s lines of communication and funding have been severly disrupted.



Doc

Also a non-believer

Is this the letter? http://www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html

Those Peace loving iranians are at it again......
 

I believe we’ve made a colossal mistake and should lay down our arms and embrace islam. It’s quite apparent the world’s islamic leaders mean the western world no harm.

Team Sergeant
Disarming for allah.

(hey former president carter, its once again time to take your southern baptist habitat building ass over to iran and negotiate world peace, again. Be sure to take the Rev al sharpton, jesse Jackson, diane feinstein and ted kennedy so the iranians know that you mean business.:mad: )


Iranians Rally Against Israel, U.S.
Friday, October 28, 2005


TEHRAN, Iran — Tens of thousands of Iranians staged anti-Israel demonstrations across the country Friday, repeating calls by their ultraconservative president for the destruction of the Jewish state.
World leaders have condemned Wednesday's remarks by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who repeated the words of the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic revolution, by saying: "Israel must be wiped off the map."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173784,00.html

You may be on to something here TS.... After all, if carter and crew just explain to the misunderstood religion of peace represenatives that they really want to "get they're story of peace and tolerance to the world" all would be well again. Hey, that "lets sit and talk" tact worked well for Daniel Pearl during his interview with the JM group in Pakistan, right???

I will put up the money so as to add cindy sheehan to that bus/boat trip.

QRQ 30,

Good read. Thanks for posting it.

--Aric

E-Qaeda: A special report on how jihadists use the Internet and technology to spread their message (video, Washington Post).

Martin

A Year of Living Dangerously
Remember Theo van Gogh, and shudder for the future.

BY FRANCIS FUKUYAMA
Wednesday, November 2, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST
One year ago today, the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh had his throat ritually slit by Mohamed Bouyeri, a Muslim born in Holland who spoke fluent Dutch. This event has totally transformed Dutch politics, leading to stepped-up police controls that have now virtually shut off new immigration there. Together with the July 7 bombings in London (also perpetrated by second generation Muslims who were British citizens), this event should also change dramatically our view of the nature of the threat from radical Islamism.

We have tended to see jihadist terrorism as something produced in dysfunctional parts of the world, such as Afghanistan, Pakistan or the Middle East, and exported to Western countries. Protecting ourselves is a matter either of walling ourselves off, or, for the Bush administration, going "over there" and trying to fix the problem at its source by promoting democracy.

There is good reason for thinking, however, that a critical source of contemporary radical Islamism lies not in the Middle East, but in Western Europe. In addition to Bouyeri and the London bombers, the March 11 Madrid bombers and ringleaders of the September 11 attacks such as Mohamed Atta were radicalized in Europe. In the Netherlands, where upwards of 6% of the population is Muslim, there is plenty of radicalism despite the fact that Holland is both modern and democratic. And there exists no option for walling the Netherlands off from this problem.

We profoundly misunderstand contemporary Islamist ideology when we see it as an assertion of traditional Muslim values or culture. In a traditional Muslim country, your religious identity is not a matter of choice; you receive it, along with your social status, customs and habits, even your future marriage partner, from your social environment. In such a society there is no confusion as to who you are, since your identity is given to you and sanctioned by all of the society's institutions, from the family to the mosque to the state.
The same is not true for a Muslim who lives as an immigrant in a suburb of Amsterdam or Paris. All of a sudden, your identity is up for grabs; you have seemingly infinite choices in deciding how far you want to try to integrate into the surrounding, non-Muslim society. In his book "Globalized Islam" (2004), the French scholar Olivier Roy argues persuasively that contemporary radicalism is precisely the product of the "deterritorialization" of Islam, which strips Muslim identity of all of the social supports it receives in a traditional Muslim society.

The identity problem is particularly severe for second- and third-generation children of immigrants. They grow up outside the traditional culture of their parents, but unlike most newcomers to the United States, few feel truly accepted by the surrounding society.

Contemporary Europeans downplay national identity in favor of an open, tolerant, "post-national" Europeanness. But the Dutch, Germans, French and others all retain a strong sense of their national identity, and, to differing degrees, it is one that is not accessible to people coming from Turkey, Morocco or Pakistan. Integration is further inhibited by the fact that rigid European labor laws have made low-skill jobs hard to find for recent immigrants or their children. A significant proportion of immigrants are on welfare, meaning that they do not have the dignity of contributing through their labor to the surrounding society. They and their children understand themselves as outsiders.

It is in this context that someone like Osama bin Laden appears, offering young converts a universalistic, pure version of Islam that has been stripped of its local saints, customs and traditions. Radical Islamism tells them exactly who they are--respected members of a global Muslim umma to which they can belong despite their lives in lands of unbelief. Religion is no longer supported, as in a true Muslim society, through conformity to a host of external social customs and observances; rather it is more a question of inward belief. Hence Mr. Roy's comparison of modern Islamism to the Protestant Reformation, which similarly turned religion inward and stripped it of its external rituals and social supports.

If this is in fact an accurate description of an important source of radicalism, several conclusions follow. First, the challenge that Islamism represents is not a strange and unfamiliar one. Rapid transition to modernity has long spawned radicalization; we have seen the exact same forms of alienation among those young people who in earlier generations became anarchists, Bolsheviks, fascists or members of the Bader-Meinhof gang. The ideology changes but the underlying psychology does not.

Further, radical Islamism is as much a product of modernization and globalization as it is a religious phenomenon; it would not be nearly as intense if Muslims could not travel, surf the Web, or become otherwise disconnected from their culture. This means that "fixing" the Middle East by bringing modernization and democracy to countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia will not solve the terrorism problem, but may in the short run make the problem worse. Democracy and modernization in the Muslim world are desirable for their own sake, but we will continue to have a big problem with terrorism in Europe regardless of what happens there.

The real challenge for democracy lies in Europe, where the problem is an internal one of integrating large numbers of angry young Muslims and doing so in a way that does not provoke an even angrier backlash from right-wing populists. Two things need to happen: First, countries like Holland and Britain need to reverse the counterproductive multiculturalist policies that sheltered radicalism, and crack down on extremists. But second, they also need to reformulate their definitions of national identity to be more accepting of people from non-Western backgrounds.

The first has already begun to happen. In recent months, both the Dutch and British have in fact come to an overdue recognition that the old version of multiculturalism they formerly practiced was dangerous and counterproductive. Liberal tolerance was interpreted as respect not for the rights of individuals, but of groups, some of whom were themselves intolerant (by, for example, dictating whom their daughters could befriend or marry). Out of a misplaced sense of respect for other cultures, Muslims minorities were left to regulate their own behavior, an attitude which dovetailed with a traditional European corporatist approaches to social organization. In Holland, where the state supports separate Catholic, Protestant and socialist schools, it was easy enough to add a Muslim "pillar" that quickly turned into a ghetto disconnected from the surrounding society.

New policies to reduce the separateness of the Muslim community, like laws discouraging the importation of brides from the Middle East, have been put in place in the Netherlands. The Dutch and British police have been given new powers to monitor, detain and expel inflammatory clerics. But the much more difficult problem remains of fashioning a national identity that will connect citizens of all religions and ethnicities in a common democratic culture, as the American creed has served to unite new immigrants to the United States.

Since van Gogh's murder, the Dutch have embarked on a vigorous and often impolitic debate on what it means to be Dutch, with some demanding of immigrants not just an ability to speak Dutch, but a detailed knowledge of Dutch history and culture that many Dutch people do not have themselves. But national identity has to be a source of inclusion, not exclusion; nor can it be based, contrary to the assertion of the gay Dutch politician Pym Fortuyn who was assassinated in 2003, on endless tolerance and valuelessness. The Dutch have at least broken through the stifling barrier of political correctness that has prevented most other European countries from even beginning a discussion of the interconnected issues of identity, culture and immigration. But getting the national identity question right is a delicate and elusive task.
Many Europeans assert that the American melting pot cannot be transported to European soil. Identity there remains rooted in blood, soil and ancient shared memory. This may be true, but if so, democracy in Europe will be in big trouble in the future as Muslims become an ever larger percentage of the population. And since Europe is today one of the main battlegrounds of the war on terrorism, this reality will matter for the rest of us as well.

Mr. Fukuyama is professor of international political economy at Johns Hopkins and chairman of the editorial board of The American Interest.

There was a really good article linked to on RealClearPolitics a few weeks ago, where the case was made by Jews that for someone to be integrated they need something to integrate to.

You do no one a service by forgetting and forgiving who you are to accomodate someone else who probably don't have a clue how he or she is expected to act and has no basis, hence no reason, for adaption. That means to not forget responsibility when sharing freedom. Requiring responsibility will raise the stakes immediately and make pretty clear where people are heading.


TS, regarding my previous question to you. I don't have an answer, and to be perfectly frank you make a lot of sense. If one is asked to judge a game and you close your eyes as a specific team's member is tripped, you're at least not on that team's side.

I have a problem in addressing the question, because even though I have met my fair share of immigrants from the middle east, Magreb and Malaysia/Singapore, read and talked to a few knowledgeable people, my experience in dealing with these Muslims is limited - I don't have a clear fix on their world view. The QPs opinions weigh heavily, you have a tendancy to be right.

With that said, I'm thinking that long term and cultural fear's effect on the person may have something to do with the answer of why the west is still allowed there - complacency - as well as need and greed, and image. But I really don't know, that's why I asked.

Martin

Not to beat a dead horse after my Fukuyama post abpve, but I am more worried about the products of French suburbs (and others like them) than I am about madrassas in Muslim nations. They are producing mass quantities of alienated, angry Islamic youths who can move easily through Western society without causing alarm. :munchin

Chirac Appeals for Calm as Violent Protests Shake Paris's Suburbs

By CRAIG S. SMITH

Six nights of violence in the city's immigrant-heavy northern suburbs threatened to spiral into a political crisis.
The violence, primarily the burning of cars, began as a protest over the deaths last Thursday of two North African youths who were electrocuted when they jumped over a fence surrounding a high-voltage electrical transformer. Some relatives and witnesses said the youths were running from the police, though the official account said the police were not pursuing them.

But as the car-burning spread from Clichy-sous-Bois, the suburb where the youths died, to neighboring suburbs on Wednesday, the government expressed concern that the incident could ignite broader unrest among frustrated first- and second-generation North African immigrants, who have borne the brunt of France's economic weakness.

"Emotions must quiet down," Mr. Chirac told government ministers on Wednesday, a government spokesman reported.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has seized control of the government's response from his rival, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, in what appears to be an effort to assuage anger in the country's North African population over Mr. Sarkozy's blunt authoritative style. Mr. Sarkozy, who had raised temperatures with tough remarks this week, did not speak Wednesday at the government's weekly question-and-answer session before the legislature.

Burning cars as a form of protest is not unusual in the largely immigrant, working-class neighborhoods. Unemployment rates there are 30 percent or more, while the national rate is 10 percent. More than 20,000 cars have been set ablaze in France so far this year, according to a government report cited by the newspaper Le Figaro.

The periodic violence highlights France's failure to integrate immigrants into the country's broader society, a problem that has grown in urgency as the unemployment rate climbs. Most of the country's immigrants are housed in government-subsidized apartments on the outskirts of industrial cities. They benefit from generous welfare programs, but the government's failure to provide jobs has created a sense of disenfranchisement among the young. A highly observant form of Islam has grown popular among the mostly Muslim population.

But the spread of violence over six nights has particularly alarmed the government, which is already preoccupied by a contest between Mr. Villepin and Mr. Sarkozy to become the governing center-right party's presidential candidate in 2007.

Mr. Sarkozy has made zero tolerance of crime part of his tough law-and-order platform.

"If it continues, people will start to look for who to blame," said Dominique Reynié, a professor of French political life at the National Foundation of Political Sciences, referring to the violence.

According to an account by Mr. Sarkozy, the incident last week began when a group of youths in Clichy-sous-Bois were returning home after playing soccer and the police received a report that someone had broken into a nearby construction site. The police arrived, gave chase and took six youths into custody.

Mr. Sarkozy said police logs showed that the police and their detainees arrived at the local police station at 6 p.m., while a power failure caused when the two other youths made contact with the transformer did not occur until 12 minutes later. He said one youth who had survived the transformer episode confirmed that the police were not chasing him and his friends at the time.

Geeze it took you that long to figure that out?:rolleyes:

Now just where do you think the cowerdists are getting their sub-human, low IQ, islamic cruise missles from?

TS

Been worried for awhile, but the heat is definitely building! :D

History News Network, October 10, 2005
Selective Muslim Silence
By Judith Apter Klinghoffer
Ms. Klinghoffer is senior associate scholar at the Political Science department at Rutgers University, Camden, and the author of Vietnam, Jews and the Middle East. She is also an HNN blogger.

Where is the sane moderate peace loving Muslim world? Why is its voice so rarely raised in condemnation of Islamist atrocities? It is a question which has been raised in ever increasing urgency since 9/11 and not only by Westerners. A few Muslim commentators have raised it too, but they remained the exception rather than the rule. Last time I raised the issue, it was in the context of a number of cased involving the charge of “insulting Islam,” a charge which led to anti-Coptic riots as well as to the imprisoning a 78-year old Iranian Ayatolla and an Afghani editor of a woman’s magazine.

.........

However, the same Muslim countries, organizations and pundits can be plenty vocal and aggressive when in comes to protecting Islamists from the consequences of their own actions. In fact, they often support their causes. As human rights activist Abu Khwala explains, “fighting infidels until they either convert to Islam or submit to Muslims as 'Dhimmis' is still considered by Islamists to be a religious duty." Hence, any actions undertaken by Muslims towards that end must be vehemently defended with a total disregard of the means used and that is precisely what supposedly non Islamist Muslim leaders do.

Consider the following headline: "Muslim embassies complain over Mohammed caricatures." It all started with editors of Jyllands-Posten, a Danish newspaper hearing reports that artists were reluctant to illustrate a book on Mohammed for fear of Muslim retribution. So, they asked cartoonists to send them drawings of Muhammad. “The cartoons,” they argue, “were a test of whether the threat of Islamic terrorism had limited the freedom of _expression in Denmark.” It should be noted that Denmark, unlike Germany, has no laws prescribing free speech. In fact, for years Nazis and Islamists have used Denmark as a safe haven from which to continue to promote their heinous totalitarian ideologies.

Islamists may be happy to exploit Danish freedoms and publish material demeaning to Christians and Jews but what is good for the goose is apparently not good for the gander. The Muslim response came fast and furious. The Danish imam Raed Hlayhel dismissed arguments about free press arguing that "This type of democracy is worthless for Muslims. Muslims will never accept this kind of humiliation. The article has insulted every Muslim in the world." This same Imam shocked Danes when he said in a sermon during Friday prayer, that Danish women's behavior and dress invited rape. In any case, Muslim organizations not only protested vigorously. The cartoonists received death threats which led to the arrest of a 17 year old. Threats to bomb the building led to the positioning of security guards around it.

The affair was not only reminiscent of the Salman Rushdie affair but for the first time, as Danish political science professor Mehdi Mozaffari points out “acts of private individuals, and not the Danish state, could lead to the country falling prey to a terrorist attack.” The Middle East Times reports:

Last week as many as 5,000 Muslims demonstrated in Copenhagen against the paper and the drawings, which depicted Prophet Mohammed in different settings. In one of the drawings he appeared with a turban shaped like a bomb strapped to his head.

...........

Suddenly, the ever silent Muslims states found their tongues. 11 ambassadors including those from a number of Arab countries, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Indonesia entered the fray not to calm the excesses of their coreligionists or condemn the threats of violence but to complain about the cartoons and Danish Islamophobia! The Turkish ambassador even seconded the Imam’s sentiments, berating the paper for “abusing Islam in the name of democracy, human rights and freedom of _expression.” The ambassadors wrote a letter to Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen notifying him that they were offended by the caricatures, demanding an official apology from the newspaper and asking for a special audience “to express their concern about what they perceive as anti-Muslim and anti-Islam campaigns in the press and certain far-right political circles.“ The Prime Minister turned down the request for a meeting pointing out that he (unlike Arab tyrants whose papers are full of anti-Semitic propaganda) has no control over the press.

At first, the Egyptian Ambassador Mona Omar Attia embarked on a direct political attack against the Prime Minister by telling a Danish news broadcast that the group planned to meet to discuss contacting other parliamentary leaders, some of whom had urged the PM to meet with the ambassadors. Eventually, a decision was reached “to let international Muslim groups take over the cause, allowing groups such as the Organisation of the Islamic Conference to try to influence the prime minister.” “It's out of our hands,” said Egyptian ambassador Attia, “Now it is moving up to the international level. Therefore, we will not try to contact Denmark's political leaders.” One could imagine that “the Arab League will weigh in soon.”

So, here we are: part of the Muslim community is in the thrall of a totalitarian ideology which turns young Muslims into human bombs. Photos of Muslim and non Muslim civilian body parts flying in the middle of markets, mosques, discos and hotels have become routine. Beheadings of Christian and Jewish men and women are no longer surprising. And what do the ever-silent and passive-defensive Muslim countries, Organization of Islamic Conference and the Arab League vociferously condemn? They are condemning the publication of cartoons featuring Muhammad in a Danish paper. The absurdity of this action is only matched by its hypocrisy.

http://www.hnn.us/articles/17589.html

Not to dismiss the point of the article, Frostfire, but we need to keep in mind that we have not seen these caricatures. This is important because Denmark has become more xenophobic. I would not rule out that that the caricatures were distasteful. On the other hand, the reaction is still completely unproportional to everything else going on!

There has been grumblings between Swedish Folkpartiet and Danske Folkepartiet, non-related political parties, based on what some Swedes consider a growing xenophobia, not only in regards to Islam. Now, however, as the position grows in popularity, the Swedish Folkpartiet is trying to ride the wave too.

In the Swedish case it's not entirely bad, since it detracts members from more radical and true hate-parties, which would have been the only choice for those concerned with immigration here.

Martin

Motivational Considerations
 

an often forgoten PAM would be DA PAM 550-104 Human Factors and Considerations In Undergrounds and Insurgencies. It's a dry read but with a trained eye stuff will jump out at you. as the crux of the question is WHY are they fighting. Obviously they are motivated to fight but WHY. What the hell is motivating them? Theological motivation is the best motivator in the world and all throuough history. The next question is how do we remove the motivating stimulus? Look at the Saudies who is it that builds grand Mosques all throught the world yet when the Sunami hit they said it was because the place that it his was a sinful country and that she deserved what they got, well that explanes why the Saudies didn't give but a fraction of what the US did. The Saudies hold the Islamic world at their knees litteraly as the fith piller of the faith is to make the hadj pillgramage to Mecca. The Saudies are the BASE of the religion, get that, the BASE (al Qiedia= the base).

While in Bosnia did anyone think that it was odd that all of the Serbs, the Bosniacs, and the Croats were able to call it a Holy war yet the media could not. GOD forbid that the media call it what it was, no, they had to call it an ethnic war and ethnic clensing. What a load of crap. Everyone there knew what they were fighting for but the media knew that if they had called it what it was and said it was a Holy war that the US military would never have been commited to go in. The US would never get involved in a "Holy War". Thus there would be no story for the media to make their money.

Just because one party in the fight refuses to call it what it is dosen't mean that that is not what it is. The Islamist have been calling it a Holy war for years. Why is it so hard for us to call it that. Just because we are a polytheistic nation made up many beleafs and at times overly "tolerant" of others beliefs, does that mean that we can' t call it what the dictionary would.

How long did it take this administration to call the current situation in Iraq an "insurgency"

Call it what our opponits do and let's get on with it.
And now for the next question; How does a polytheistic nation fight a holy war?

XDOC,

Learn to use the "search" button....:rolleyes: this "forgotten" DA PAM 550-104 has been discussed ad nauseum. Do you really think a website dedicated to Special Forces would forget? You forget with whom you're dealing with. Oh and BTW the actual title is "Human Factors Considerations of Undergrounds in Insurgencies"

Are you yourself SF or MI?

Team Sergeant
Master Sergeant
SF (ret)
Owner of DA PAM 550-104
Dated Sept 1966

An often forgotten courtesy when visiting a new website would be to stop, look around, READ THE STICKYS, follow their guidelines-i.e. use of the search button; introducing yourself in the appropriate thread and so on.
These stickys can be a dry read, but stuff will jump out at you since it is specifically written for those without a trained eye.:rolleyes:

Eagle

BTW: When you answer TS's questions, be certain to validate the term "DOC" in your screen name.

Eagle

You need to post an introduction in the Base Camp forum under introductions too while you're at it. We like to know who we are dealing with to some degree.

Have a good one.

Doc