Interesting, did you know that the Japanese paid for and brought western boxers to teach the Japanese boxing? The boxers noted that the average Japanese soldier lacked the aggression needed to box.

Apparently the Japanese with the advent of modern weapons and since the fall of old Samurai system were concerned with the lack of aggression of the Japanese soldiers since most were not from warrior clans and bred for battle like the pre-WW1 era.

Teddy (greenberetTFS) who made the comment two years ago that you referenced, has passed (hence the RIP after his name), so we will never know if he knew that or not.

TR

Damn I gotta wake up and pay attention to the posts.

Thanks for pointing that out

Datu Kelly Worden
 

Over the years Kenpo Karate, Kali, Silat and JKD.

Presently re-starting with Datu Kelly Worden in his "Essential 24" program as taught to 1st Group at Lewis.

http://www.kellyworden.com/

I trained with Kelly Worden for a year when I was with 1st Group ODA 155

He is an awesome no shit real world take you into the street or back alley kind of guy.

Datu Worden
 

I'm visiting with Kelly this evening in T-Town.

He is the real deal and has devoted himself to developing and teaching real world martial strategy, technique and tactics to 1st Group operators for some time now.

Worden
 

I wish we could get a Kelly Worden for every Group, for all the technique teaching B.S. artists out there only a few are legit tough guys like Kelly. His stuff is pretty much street thuggery with skills absolutely loved it, I grew up like Kelly been in some rough places and he is the only guy I completely agreed with based off my experience. I am sure he doesn't remember me but I had a few conversations with him about boxing when he saw my hands when throwing we ended up talking about one his old gym mates and sparring partners from the 70's. Sugar Ray Seales a Tacoma native who had won an Olympic Gold Medal in 72 and had been one of the top middleweight fighters n the world going into the late 70's but unfortunately went blind from detached retina's.

I envy you I would train with Kelly in a heartbeat if I could.

Just out of curosity is he keeping all his stuff local or does he have any vetted instructors he is sending out to train?

Local
 

Kelly himself is staying local for the time being.

He's giving consideration to opening a new school near where he's living and having his senior students assist in instruction.

He's still teaching the "Essential 24" which is a 1st Group program.

And he's still working on his book which is looking very good.

We had good visit and nice dinner (Thai) in downtown T-Town:D

Enriching daughter's karate?
 

All,

I have some concerns about my daughter’s karate classes and am looking for some guidance. If you have the time to read this and reply, it’d be appreciated.

My 10 year old daughter is a mid-belt student in American Freestyle Karate (kick oriented) here in town. The teaching methods rely heavily on kata/forms and choreographed responses to “one punch” that includes an initial block then follows with a counter attack/throw (4-6 moves). Sparring is 30 minutes per week as a class. The school combines teens and adults for a different class that I haven’t observed.

I spent a year in Shorin-ryu taught by a bodyguard who stressed "practical" in the mid 80’s and a brief stint in the airborne infantry after that. What seems lacking is for my daughter is realism: quick counters to the groin, knees, eyes, throat, breaks, feels very little contact, etc. Not much of just letting her go, letting her react, nor developing an “attitude” of winning the fight, if that makes sense. Perhaps they’re teaching is tailored to the age group (6-12 years old), but it seems like they’re teaching a dance class rather than something more practical.

This is the only place in town, so I’m coming to you for a bit of guidance about how to enrich her self-defense and make it more practical. A few questions follow regarding what/how karate is taught to children:

1) Are children’s’ advanced classes typically repetitive in nature?
2) Is realism typically left out for kids?
3) Cautions about enriching/interfering with her lessons and learning?
4) Do you have some suggestions for ways to make her self-defense more realistic? Resources? I've read this thread and "Does your Martial art Work" thread and noted those resources. She's a mature 10 year old.

Thank you for any insight,

Rumbly

edit: This was emailed to my former sensei from 1985ish, and he actually called back. His response was that she's young, and learning a foundation. He suggested that while not teaching her the more disabling techniques, plant that there's something more effective out there. Along the lines of "You're learning this and keep it up. But there's more than one way to do things that can be more effective, and you can learn these later." He pointed out that some schools are very black/white with their instruction and might not react well if she does something different. He also stated that by hinting at something different in the future that she won't get brainwashed into "this one way is the right way" and not be able to adapt to something different.

[QUOTE=Rumblyguts;571512]All,

I have some concerns about my daughter’s karate classes and am looking for some guidance. If you have the time to read this and reply, it’d be appreciated.
The teaching methods rely heavily on kata/forms and choreographed responses to “one punch” that includes an initial block then follows with a counter attack/throw (4-6 moves). Sparring is 30 minutes per week as a class. The school combines teens and adults for a different class that I haven’t observed.

Remember that Karate is a self defense art which implies that she is the victim and has already been attacked and must now react essentially being trained to react to the first punch instead of being proactive when danger has been sensed. Kata forms are the equivelant of a boxer or Muay Thai fighter throwing combinations or a wrestler chain wrestling or a grappler technques chaining the difference is in intent. Katas are reactionary and are intended to be automatic reactions self defense in nature as was the purpose of Karate meaning the damage has been done already. The others are proactive in nature and imply that the attacker is striking first. Karate does not teach adapting to the reality of a fight the others dictate where the fight happens and are free flow adapting to the opponents reactions.


1) Are children’s’ advanced classes typically repetitive in nature?

Yes I have noticed that with kids they are usually developed along the lines of their physical development such as balance, concentration. The repetition is ingraining of reactions to establish muscle memory.

2) Is realism typically left out for kids?

In competitive martial arts such as wrestling, boxing, Judo, Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai etc...effectiveness isn't left out. There is not such thing as realism in MA training, I have never seen the fight or flight response replicated, the fear of imminent death, never seen any art here students actually kick others in the groin, gouge eyes, punch throats, knife fight, disarm real bad guys or break necks. There are more realistic arts where a person has to prove their techniques such a single leg takedown, dominant positioning, chokes, a punch or kick followed up by others and responses so you get feedback against a live opponent.

3) Cautions about enriching/interfering with her lessons and learning?

Your old sensei is correct, many schools believe that what they teach is best and seeing a student do something not taught by them is taboo. At her age curiosity kills the cat especially when she sees an opportunity to prove something she was taught elsewhere.

4) Do you have some suggestions for ways to make her self-defense more realistic? Resources? I've read this thread and "Does your Martial art Work" thread and noted those resources. She's a mature 10 year old.

Pull her out of Karate and enroll her in MMA training, she will be far more aware of the reality of what someone tells her as being probable or a gimmick. Many ancient arts taught by American "Sensei" usually teach unrealistic techniques and sometimes make false claims of the lethality without ever having use the art themselves. Having heard from friends in Okinawa the origin of Karate being taught by Masters the commercialism in the U.S. has corrupted the art to being inadequate. The history of Karate was an art for the Okinawan people the poor farmers etc...to defend themselves from mercenaries of Japan called Ninja who governed the Island. It's purpose was out of necessity due to being not allowed to own weapons and the brutality of the bully ninja's but today.....

Thank you for your time.

Remember that Karate is a self defense art which implies that she is the victim and has already been attacked and must now react essentially being trained to react to the first punch instead of being proactive when danger has been sensed. Kata forms are the equivelant of a boxer or Muay Thai fighter throwing combinations or a wrestler chain wrestling or a grappler technques chaining the difference is in intent. Katas are reactionary and are intended to be automatic reactions self defense in nature as was the purpose of Karate meaning the damage has been done already. The others are proactive in nature and imply that the attacker is striking first. Karate does not teach adapting to the reality of a fight the others dictate where the fight happens and are free flow adapting to the opponents reactions.

My view of the "choreography" is that it's developing gross motor skill and muscle memory. Also as a way of herding a group of cats ;) But I'm leery of it developing linear responses and stagnation in reacting to an advisory's attack. My daughter often sees things as black and white, and I can envision her stagnating over choosing the "right" response rather than reacting. The SA aspect is something that we touch on here at home and around town once in a while.

2) Is realism typically left out for kids?

In competitive martial arts such as wrestling, boxing, Judo, Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai etc...effectiveness isn't left out. There is not such thing as realism in MA training, I have never seen the fight or flight response replicated, the fear of imminent death, never seen any art here students actually kick others in the groin, gouge eyes, punch throats, knife fight, disarm real bad guys or break necks. There are more realistic arts where a person has to prove their techniques such a single leg takedown, dominant positioning, chokes, a punch or kick followed up by others and responses so you get feedback against a live opponent.

Aye, the discussion about the scarless knife fighting instructor comes to mind.
The closest she gets to realism is fully padded, torso-contact sparring. (and one tournament) She hasn't felt a hard block in training, nor punched something with little give. The latter parts of your comment match what my old sensei teaches to students her age - go at it and figur out what works.

Pull her out of Karate and enroll her in MMA training, she will be far more aware of the reality of what someone tells her as being probable or a gimmick.

I'd love to change, but this is the only place for martial arts training for roughly 30 miles around. Hence looking for way to enrich what's here.

Many ancient arts taught by American "Sensei" usually teach unrealistic techniques and sometimes make false claims of the lethality without ever having use the art themselves. Having heard from friends in Okinawa the origin of Karate being taught by Masters the commercialism in the U.S. has corrupted the art to being inadequate. The history of Karate was an art for the Okinawan people the poor farmers etc...to defend themselves from mercenaries of Japan called Ninja who governed the Island. It's purpose was out of necessity due to being not allowed to own weapons and the brutality of the bully ninja's but today.....

What you state regarding the commercialism is interesting. This school does seem a bit like a mill rather than teaching something "proven". While this place does well in "karate tournaments", I haven't seen them pad-up the bo staff or escrima sticks and go at it.

Good food for thought. Thanks.
Rumbly

When I was a kid, my folks sent me to a traditional karate school. A few years later, my first day in a Thai boxing gym saw me get my ass stomped. I learned more in my first month at the Thai gym than I had in years with the traditional stuff.

To learn to fight, a person has to actually fight. Somebody can tell you to keep your hands up, but the best teacher is fighting some quick bastard with a good jab who sends you home with a bloody nose. Want to learn how to check a leg kick? Get dropped from leg kicks and you will figure it out in a hurry, or else learn how to deal with deep thigh bruises on a daily basis. Traditional martial arts usually don't have enough contact to teach people what they need to know.

Your situation is pretty tough, not having a good place to train nearby. Like WD said, a good MMA school is hard to beat, the problem being they are not ubiquitous.

If there was a good school within 30 miles, she would get a lot more out of going there on Saturday than she will being taught junk 3 nights a week close to home. In the old days, there was always an old Golden Glove or military boxer in every small town who could teach the kids. Those days are gone.

Maybe if she is at least getting good workouts in, you can let her know that she is just in phase 1, getting the athletic parts down. Phase 2 can come later when a good teacher becomes available.

What my two brothers have said and get some good sparring gloves and pads for both you and her and let her beat on you. She will learn a lot and it will give you some bonding time.

craigpo:

The note of one day at a good place is better than 3 at a mediocre joint struck home and keeping eyes open for another place struck home. She hasn't taken to it as a passion, like someone who loves baseball would just go outside to throw a ball in the air. It'd be interesting to see if she'd do more at home.

craigpo and Joker:
I'm planning on doing some play scenarioes such as random bear hugs in the hallway, more rough-housing, etc. Play, process, explore, bond, etc.

Thanks
Rumbly

I would just add that whatever she does, it needs to be fun and entertaining for her, or it will end poorly without the knowledge transfer and experience you seek and she may never try it again.

TR